Is the 6.8 western gaining traction or did the 7mm prc finish it off?

[Gila]

I have a difficult time thinking that over 300 EXPERT handloader “dorks” are wrong…..

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Public-Introduction-7mm-Precision-Rifle-Cartridge-2022-06-16-rev1.pdf

 

[bmart2622]

But all the people building 7PRCs on Tikka actions, including custom builders are wrong?

 

[bmart2622]

It is possible to own and shoot a 6.8W without spewing nonsense and trying(and failing) to tear down the 7 PRC to justify your decision. Youve been proven wrong over and over, just move along and enjoy your 6.8 W

 

[Formidilosus]

I have a difficult time thinking that over 300 EXPERT handloader “dorks” are wrong…..

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Public-Introduction-7mm-Precision-Rifle-Cartridge-2022-06-16-rev1.pdf

Your reasoning is that “well experts are doing it”?

Tell me, what exactly is wrong with a 180gr ELD-M in a Saami 7PRC chamber.

 

[Lou270]

Beyond that, a 7PRC loaded with 180gr ELD-M’s at 3.34” COAL, outperforms terminally and external ballistically every single possible combination of the 6.8 Western. So what is your point?

The 6.8 Western is cool. It suffers from no comparable bullets to 6.5mm and 7mm, and two companies that have no idea how to make, sell, and support a modern cartridge.

And the 300 prc/30 nosler is more than 7prc and the 338 lapua, 375 cheytac, more than 300 etc. Pick your recoil and performance level. The 6.8 fits in there directly between 6.5/7prc. Maybe it is the new 280/280ai stuck between 270/30-06. Who knows, but still plenty of market for it.

I also don't agree there is not good long range bullets for the .270. That is fudd-lore or maybe reverse fudd-lore. Hornady is pretty much the only one that does not have a heavy 270 offering and I bet they will eventually even if do not load 6.8W.

The 6.8 Western is basically a 27 cal 6.5 prc design that Win stole from hornady which is a necked 300 rcm that Hornady stole from Winchester that Winchester stole from Jamison though there were short fat mags before Jamison. I wonder if Jamison would sue Hornady if the patent didnt expire…. So the 6.8W is a good modern design and if not, neither is the 6.5 prc. What Winchester does not have is the 6.5 creedmoor cred that all of these cartridges are riding on the laurels of. So the PRC line get a deserved free bump for that in the market whether they are better than similar designs or not.

Lou

 

[gerry35]

You keep repeating this and you keep quoting him and it’s wrong, at least functionally. I have shot several 7PRC Tikkas, and there are tons made. They work just fine and shoot as well anything. This is nothing but an issue that reloading dorks have made about something that isn’t true functionally a problem. The 180gr ELD-M is the high BC 7mm hunting bullet and the 7PRC is designed to shoot it correctly in factory ammo.

Beyond that, a 7PRC loaded with 180gr ELD-M’s at 3.34” COAL, outperforms terminally and external ballistically every single possible combination of the 6.8 Western. So what is your point?

The 6.8 Western is cool. It suffers from no comparable bullets to 6.5mm and 7mm, and two companies that have no idea how to make, sell, and support a modern cartridge.

Honest question here, do you work for Hornady? Not sure why you get so up in arms with guys liking the 6,8 Western. Have you tried the round yourself?

Hornady has been asked to produce a 170+/- 277 bullet many times but won't, I think it's due to their ego that they won't. Berger, Sierra and Nosler have some great options. The 7 PRC should outperform a 6.8 Western since it's bigger. Even with the slight difference between them they both are great rounds. I guess a guy will have to get 30 yards closer to make up for the small difference. The 6.8 Western certainly outperforms a 223 which is all the rage on this forum for some strange reason.

Winchester/Browning may not be as good as Hornady when it comes to marketing but Hornady sure showed their colors during the plandemic when they got caught trying to force their employees to "comply" or lose their jobs. We all saw the leaked letters.

 

[Formidilosus]

Honest question here, do you work for Hornady?

No. You don’t have to use red herrings. Logic and objectivity work well.

Not sure why you get so up in arms with guys liking the 6,8 Western.

Can you quote where I have been “up in arms about the 6.8 western”?

There’s a difference between pointing out the objective reason why it isn’t gaining traction or what it has to overcome to become a legit cartridge that will commonly be available and used; and what several people do- which is make ridiculous claims and arguments that have no factual basis.

Here’s the reality: Winchester, Browning, Remington, etc have no idea how to design, market, and support a new cartridge. The 6.8 Western is a well designed cartridge yet the best factory loaded bullet has a low to mid .6 G1 BC (which is relatively mediocre for the recoil), it is high recoil, and has extremely limited and expensive ammo options. Let’s clarify that last point- it has extremely limited non conventional bullet options.
That’s fine, but that situation that Winchester created will guarantee that it will not be a mainstay with shooters, and therefore will be outdone/less popular/less supported than the 6.5 PRC and 7PRC. Regardless of who chambers it or not, regardless of temporary shortages- Hornady supports their modern cartridges- there will be really good factory ammo for them.

Have you tried the round yourself?

Yes. It’s a well designed, heavy recoil, mediocre bullet BC, cartridge that can only be bought in comprised rifles or ones that are almost never in stock, and with extremely limited ammo options.

Hornady has been asked to produce a 170+/- 277 bullet many times but won't, I think it's due to their ego that they won't.

No, they won’t or haven’t yet, because the market isn’t there. Long range shooters don’t shoot .277- it does nothing functional that isn’t already being done by 6.5mm and 7mm bullets. Hornady also doesn’t have a .257 cartridge, yet they make a high BC .257 bullet because the competition market was there. Hunters that actually buy rifles in a new cartridge are extremely few, and the ones that will buy ammo with a “match” bullet are already buying them in cartridges with established high BC bullets. It’s simply an uphill battle that any objective look at, has a hard time justifying.

Berger, Sierra and Nosler have some great options.

Really? What options match a 6.5mm 147gr ELD-M or a 7mm 180gr ELD-M? The best is the Berger 170gr with a .660 G1. Neat, I go up in recoil and down in shootability to get a less capable bullet than a 6.5mm. Even so, where is that bullet? I go all over the country into gun stores and walk down the bullet aisles to see what is in stock, and have seen the 170gr EOL bullet in one store one time. They are not commonly available.

What Nosler bullet is available with a high .6 G1 BC? What Sierra? And where are they, because they aren’t in stock and on shelves in stores. And no, that isn’t because they are so popular- it’s because they aren’t popular, and Winchester and browning don’t support the 6.8W. Its fuel- people that buy new rifles and new chamberings want lots of readily available, high quality fuel.

The 7 PRC should outperform a 6.8 Western since it's bigger. Even with the slight difference between them they both are great rounds. I guess a guy will have to get 30 yards closer to make up for the small difference.

This is why new “hunting” cartridges will fail- “hunters”, and the companies don’t understand why certain cartridges are succeeding, and instead say things like this. The 7PRC is getting chambered in factory Tikka rifles 1 year after it was released because Hornady understands how to design, make, and support cartridges; snd they supply lots and lots of excellent projectiles.

The 6.8 Western certainly outperforms a 223 which is all the rage on this forum for some strange reason.

How does this have anything to do with a 223? In any case it’s the perfect example of the cluelessness of conventional hunters. The 223 is “all the rage” for the same reasons that you, and others can’t grasp why Hornady rounds are popular- function and support. Throwing coke cans through elk and moose with 4 ft-lbs of recoil and $0.30 a shot practice ammo. Lots and lots of readily available fuel.


In an 8.5lb rifle the max 170gr and 175gr loads for the 6.8 are right at 25ft-lbs of recoil. The 7PRC is 27ft lbs for a 180gr max load. Theres no functional difference as both recoil heavily- so why would someone standing there deciding which to buy, choose the cartridge that has less performance and way less options, when the only “good” bullets are never in stock on a shelf? 3/4 of the stores I go into in the west, 7mm 175gr ELD-X and 180gr ELD-M are sitting there.
It doesn’t matter that you, or other people don’t care about that- the market clearly does.

Winchester/Browning may not be as good as Hornady when it comes to marketing but Hornady sure showed their colors during the plandemic when they got caught trying to force their employees to "comply" or lose their jobs. We all saw the leaked letters.

See this is the type on ridiculousness that @bmart2622 referred to- do you know which state Nosler is located? Do you believe their employees weren’t falling under the same BS as Hornady’s? What about Winchester? Which states are Winchester ammo facilities and employees in?

 

[Formidilosus]

@gerry35 and @Lou270

How many factory rounds of 6.8 Western ammo have y’all bought and shot? How many 170gr Berger EOL’s have you bought, and how many total of the newer higher BC .277 bullets have you bought for reloading the 6.8?

 

[pacoalcracker]

all you need to know about Winchester and how they support their ammo supply/choice is this - go try and find ammo for the 270wsm, the 7wsm, the 325wsm, or even the more popular 300wsm. almost non-existent and when you do find it the price is crazy because of that. winchester sucks, period. aint no way in hell I would choose a 6.8W over a 6.5prc or 7prc. I handload and still wouldnt do it. go look on GB...they cant move those 6.8W's. for good reason...nobody wants or needs one. maybe they should have just supported the 270wsm instead of coming up with another failure!

 

[ElPollo]

all you need to know about Winchester and how they support their ammo supply/choice is this - go try and find ammo for the 270wsm, the 7wsm, the 325wsm, or even the more popular 300wsm. almost non-existent and when you do find it the price is crazy because of that. winchester sucks, period. aint no way in hell I would choose a 6.8W over a 6.5prc or 7prc. I handload and still wouldnt do it. go look on GB...they cant move those 6.8W's. for good reason...nobody wants or needs one. maybe they should have just supported the 270wsm instead of coming up with another failure!

I will second your sentiment on Winchester ammo support. When I owned a 300 WSM, the ammo that was most widely available was Federal, followed by Hornady. Winchester was my go-to hunting ammo in the early 90s, but they have not kept up with changes in bullet technology and I can’t remember the last time I bought any Winchester/Olin ammo.

One other thing to keep in mind, when was the last “widely successful” non-military cartridge introduced by a major gunmaker? I would argue it was probably the 7 RM in 1962. At that time, Remington and Winchester controlled both the gun market and the ammo market.

The situation now is different and the two markets are separate and much more diverse. Form is right about ammo support. Olin is separated from Winchester and focuses heavily on military contracts. They also don’t make bullets, which makes the 6.8 a tactical error from a business/manufacturing perspective. The 6.8 is just not a major business priority for Olin. Other gun and ammo companies have their own priorities and are not supporting the 6.8.

Form is also correct that Hornady has become a juggernaught for sporting ammo because they reliably produce high quality stuff. Gun manufacturers get on the Hornady bandwagon and chamber their cartridges because their customers know the ammo will be available and it’ll work well.

The 6.8 does likely represent the best cartridge design Winchester has ever produced, but it will end up orphaned like the 270 WSM and every other cartridge Winchester has produced in modern times.

 

[KenLee]

I see where production rifle makers are starting to get with the program and offering rifles with faster twist rates in 270 WSM, 270 Win and .243 win. I shot the Hornady custom magnums with Interbonds in 270 win. Then they dropped the ammo line and went with superformance.

Hornady marketed the "light magnum" interbonds as not for use in semi-autos. Wife at that time kept mixing loose ammo up and ending up with them in her Remington 7400, so I quit buying those. When the Superformance line came out, Hornady said it was safe to use in all rifles.

 

[lilharcher]

6.8W…….no thank you, no thank you, no thank you.

 

[atmat]

The 7PRC is getting chambered in factory Tikka rifles 1 year after it was released

Did I miss this news somewhere? They’ll be producing 7prc factory Tikkas now?

 

[bmart2622]

Yeah, it was confirmed at SHOT

 

[Lou270]

@gerry35 and @Lou270

How many factory rounds of 6.8 Western ammo have y’all bought and shot? How many 170gr Berger EOL’s have you bought, and how many total of the newer higher BC .277 bullets have you bought for reloading the 6.8?

Lots. I have 2 6.8 and a 1-8 270 wsm. I also own my own property and hunt and shoot a lot. The 170 berger is a hammer and has a similar bc to the 156 berger I can say it drops game much more dramatically them the 140 berger 6.5, at least out of the creedmoor which I have also used a bit. So did the 7mm /168 out of 7mm wsm. I also dont stick with one bullet type as try many in many different cartridges as I like to test things. I have killed game with 165 matrix, 165 ablr, 170 btip, 170 berger, 175 tgk in last few years and that is multiple of each except the 170 btip which is only 1 so far. I have about 250 170 bergers left on hand since you asked

The reality from your posts Form is you are stuck on eldms as being the best game bullet and will dismiss anything that does not use that bullet. It is a nice bullet but it is not a hunting bullet. All of the hunting heavy 7mm/6.5 bullets are similar bc to heavy .277 cal. There is no magic. And you are right the 6.8 does not do anything the 6.5/7 prc do not. However it does more than 6.5 prc and nearly as much as the 7 prc. Whether there ends up being market there or not is tbd but if you want more performance/heavier bullets than a 6.5 prc but not the recoil of a 7prc/300 mag get the 6.8W.

You folks keep dissing the 270 wsm but it was no different than the prcs. It came out and everybody made ammo for it and chambered it. The Jamison lawsuit and royalty derailed it some but it is still well supported. The RS darling Tikka still chambers for it let alone Win, Browning, Savage, CA (probably others)and I have recently seen Win, Horn, Barnes, and Nosler ammo for it. Both Peterson and ADG making brass for it this year. Not bad for a dead cartridge. How’s that 300/338 rcm support? So, when you think you are a prognosticator at least look outside of your small world. There are a lot of 27 cal fans who like the balance it offers for hunting…

Lou

 

[bmart2622]

The biggest issue is the misinformation being spread about the 7 PRC in an attempt to glorify the 6.8W. Out of curiosity, how is the Eldm not a hunting bullet?

 

[atmat]

Yeah, it was confirmed at SHOT

And yet still no 6creed

 

[atmat]

The reality from your posts Form is you are stuck on eldms as being the best game bullet and will dismiss anything that does not use that bullet.

He usually preaches the TMK and other bullets more than I see him preach the ELD-M?

It is a nice bullet but it is not a hunting bullet.

Ahh, now we know you’re wrong. It’s an awesome hunting bullet.

 

[Lou270]

He usually preaches the TMK and other bullets more than I see him preach the ELD-M?


Ahh, now we know you’re wrong. It’s an awesome hunting bullet.

He is pushing the hornady eldm load here as why PRC is superior. I did not see any ref to TMK. Not sure you can get a factory TMK prc load?

In any case I did not say could not use eldm for hunting or that it is not a good hunting bullet. However it is not the reason the PRC is popular with hunters. In all the magical Hornady propaganda they call the eldm a “paper thin jacket” not reliable for hunting. That is what the mass public see not a few outliers on these forums. The eldm can be made with higher bc exactly because it is a paper thin jacket with ogive optimized for BC and no consideration to penetration or expansion. You can get a sleeker, heavier bullet for same length if dont care about anything else. That is why eldm has higher bc than equiv eldx (which are still high bc). I am saying the fact you can get a higher bc match bullet has zero to do with success of 6.5/7mm in hunting world. You could always do this and the 6.5s had zero interest. The 6.5 creedmoor did not take off until the 145 eldx load came out and was less popular than 6.8W at similar stage before then despite having match loads (amax). Again, look at big picture and try not to take things out of context and get hackles up

Lou

 

[TaperPin]

It is quite interesting how cartridges today are judged so much on availability of factory ammo, rather than inherent capabilities - what the factory saami chamber is, rather than just making an existing cartridge into what you want. Waiting a year for a saami factory gun rather than just get a barrel turned for any flavor you want. Even calling a cartridge dead if boxes of it aren’t piled on the shelves of every gun store.

I hate to see traditions die - kids aren’t learning to tie flys or reload.