Is AZ PointGuard PLUS a scam?

[Team4LongGun]

justify your reasoning rather than making a 3 word comment. Go on the AZ pointguard page and tell us why you believe it is not a scam.

Wow.

I see your new, so welcome to the community. You may find that tasking others and demanding folks spend their time reading-as you didnt-is a bold strategy. You may get some bold responses.

 

[dsotm]

For those of you who think it is not a scam, justify your reasoning rather than making a 3 word comment. Go on the AZ pointguard page and tell us why you believe it is not a scam. Why is it clear to some but not others? I am simply asking questions. The incentive is there. AZ could allow you to return tags w/o PG, but they choose not to. Is PG to scam you out of money? Points? Both?

And yes, it is not about the antlers. It's about the pride and gratification behind those antlers. That the effort spent paid off. I do not think many would disagree that it is easier to kill a cow than a big bull. Ask yourself if there is more satisfaction in coming home with a 400+ bull or a young cow. They both fill the freezer.

Thank you to the person who suggested a donation to AZ Wounded Warrior. That may make it all worth it.

Why should those of us with reading comprehension have to justify it to you? Take the L and move on.

 

[COelk89]

It sucks for sure. It does happen fairly often that people mistakenly put in for the antlerless tag and only find out when they draw it. I almost did myself just applying using the year before hunt numbers, after that I'm much more careful.



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Did the same a few years ago, called right after submitting to see if I could alter. Answer was no. Luckily I did not draw the cow tag (still took more points than I had to draw automatically). I ended up getting a call for a turn back tag and turned it down. I am much more cautious now and verify the unit numbers. I do wish AZ was more like NM where you had to verify the actual hunt (weapon and unit type) rather than just entering the code. New Mexico makes it very clear when applying.

 

[Maverick1]

Like some others here, I apply to almost all western states, every year, for all big game species, trying to either amass a pile preference/bonus points or get lucky. It takes a great deal of money, effort, and dedication to understand the nuances for each states draw requirements, to avoid missing application deadlines and to protect those points. And it is a stressful game. It is a game where it is not difficult to lose your points. A simple act like missing consecutive applications can cause your points to vanish in a big expensive heart breaking cloud of smoke. I recently lost all of my AZ elk points to a simple oversite. I am now 46 years old and do not have enough time to accrue the points I once had and still be able to do a good packout. Poof, dream AZ elk hunt gone for good, just like that.

This year a buddy and I decided to apply as a group to a premier super-secret AZ elk unit for a once in a life archery elk hunt. We applied, he filled out the application like we have done before, life was good, until the results came out. He called me to tell me he screwed up and accidently applied for a cow tag. We now have 2 cow tags in a killer unit and 0 points. I want to be clear that we share equal responsibility with this mistake. If my points were important, I could have spent 2 minutes to verify the application was correct. The previous year I had purchased PointGuard Plus which is valid for 3 draw cycles. I instinctively assumed for years 1 draw cycle = 1 year. I paid dearly for this mistake.

PointGuard Plus is a program you can buy into that allows you to be able to return a tag and points restored for any reason for all eligible big game species for 3 draw cycles. It is important to understand what a draw cycle is and isn't, because Arizona Game and Fish does not explicitly tell you. There are 3 "big game" draw cycles in 1 year that deduct from your allotment of 3 draw cycles. Essentially, PointGuard Plus is good for 1 year only. Remember this if nothing else.

Is AZ Game and Fish intentionally vague to scam people from their earned points to combat point creep? Are they intentionally vague to avoid the regulations associated with making PointGuard look like an insurance policy? Who knows, but I do know it would be easy for AZ to clarify PointGuard Plus is an annual program rather than using some underdefined draw cycle concept. At a minimum, AZ should try their hardest to clarify common misconceptions and misunderstandings with the programs they offer. We are dedicated to them and their animals, they need to return the favor.

It's been on my mind, this is how I chose to deal with it, sorry for all the words, and I sincerely hope someone reads this and this information prevents someone from losing their coveted AZ points.

Few lessons learned to protect your points (and additional tips). Please correct me if I am wrong, as I am sure you will.

• PointGuard Plus is good for 1 year (or 3 "big game" draw cycles).
• PointGuard Plus can be purchased after you fill out an application, up to the draw cycle deadline.
• A draw cycle will be removed from your PointGuard Plus allotment of 3 draw cycles, regardless if you apply in that draw cycle or not.
• Use AI to develop intelligent questions and call those fish and game departments until you understand everything. Those people at the game depts are usually helpful, informative, and well trained.
• Double check those applications for the correct units, hunt dates, type of weapon, species and sex.
• Check that application your buddy filled out, no matter how good he is at killing big animals. Mistakes are made easily. Spend 10 seconds to have him text a photo of the application, it's that easy.
• Don't be me, apply early, seriously. Nothing sucks more than to apply late on the day of the deadline to realize the deadline is at 5 pm, not at midnight like you assumed, and now you only have 15 minutes to apply (watch out for New Mexico). This is an easy way to make terrible mistakes.
• Use GoHunt to export the draw deadlines into your work and personal calendar. Never miss another deadline, your points depend on it in some states. (Nevada, Montana, Colorado and Utah want your points)
• Apply, apply, apply. Luck has happened to me.
• Set aside a secret bank account that you use only for big game applications, and don't tell your wife about it. She won't understand.
• Make your complaints heard. They serve us.

Draw cycle deadlines are:
Winter (~Feb) Draw Cycle: Elk, Antelope
Summer (~Jun) Draw Cycle: Turkey, Sheep, Deer, Bison, Javelina
Fall (~Oct) Draw Cycle: Turkey, Bison, Javelina, Bear

@Spoony - thank you for sharing your experience. I hope this post helps someone else out in some way in the future. Unfortunate to hear you drew a tag that you do not want and are not able to return. That sucks, and can certainly be frustrating / disappointing.

I have been confused by the difference between PointGuard and PointGuard Plus before, and really was not certain what "three draw cycles" consisted of. I learned something new today, so thank you for this thread.

I hope your season turns out well!

 

[TheGrayRider]

I think I will start buying the “insurance” also moving forward. Probably a smart move…

Happy hunting to all,, TheGrayRider a/k/a Tom.

 

[dsotm]

Did the same a few years ago, called right after submitting to see if I could alter. Answer was no. Luckily I did not draw the cow tag (still took more points than I had to draw automatically). I ended up getting a call for a turn back tag and turned it down. I am much more cautious now and verify the unit numbers. I do wish AZ was more like NM where you had to verify the actual hunt (weapon and unit type) rather than just entering the code. New Mexico makes it very clear when applying.

AZ process now makes it abundantly clear what you are applying for now.

 

[wapitibob]

AZ process now makes it abundantly clear what you are applying for now.

2025




2022



2018

 

[bozeman]

Apparently not...... Just ask the OP.

AZ process now makes it abundantly clear what you are applying for now.

 

[COelk89]

AZ process now makes it abundantly clear what you are applying for now.

That is great. This has been a few years and I have only applied for points recently

 

[Rich M]

Looks like you just aren't destined to hunt AZ for bull elk. Accept it.

Go hunt cow elk and have a fun time. Life is too short.

Don't bitch at your buddy. He's gonna tell you at least he had the points to carry you into this awesome cow hunt.

 

[wapitibob]

Bulls don't quit bugling just because you have a cow tag.
This is a low end AZ unit.

 

[Spoony]

Wow.

I see your new, so welcome to the community. You may find that tasking others and demanding folks spend their time reading-as you didnt-is a bold strategy. You may get some bold responses.

If people think I am trying to find blame, or think I didn't read the regs, that is completely OK. It is difficult for some people to be constructive on Forums, especially when I am complaining. I am instinctively critical myself. BUT believe I can take blame while examining the people and the process that holds and protects our points to make it better.

My intent here is to #1 - Help others from losing points. #2 - Identify deficiencies in the AZ draw process/programs.

Thanks for the note!

 

[CorbLand]

If people think I am trying to find blame, or think I didn't read the regs, that is completely OK. It is difficult for some people to be constructive on Forums, especially when I am complaining. I am instinctively critical myself. BUT believe I can take blame while examining the people and the process that holds and protects our points to make it better.

My intent here is to #1 - Help others from losing points. #2 - Identify deficiencies in the AZ draw process/programs.

Thanks for the note!

If your intent was to help others, then the below would have been far more constructive.

Thread title - Don’t be like me.
Thread body - hey all, I had a pile of points in Az. A buddy and I decided to put in together on this super secret, wis bang, unit. Well, I let him apply for me and he applied us for a cow hunt instead of the bull hunt we talked about. I thought that point guard plus was good for three years, not all three draws in one year.

Anyways, just wanted to let people know it’s a bad idea to let someone else apply for you and that point guard plus is only good for one year, not three years. Hopefully that saves someone from making the same mistake.

End thread.

 

[Scoot]

My intent here is to #1 - Help others from losing points. #2 - Identify deficiencies in the AZ draw process/programs.

My intent with this reply is to #1 point out the problem isn't a deficiency in the AZ draw process, and #2 point out the problem is in the individual pointing fingers and crying that someone/something other than him is to blame.

Tons of folks reading your post applied to the same system after reading the same info you supposedly did, and virtually all of them got it right. Please better help us understand how you not getting it is not your fault, because it sure seems like it is.

 

[Dawg In Montana]

If people think I am trying to find blame, or think I didn't read the regs, that is completely OK. It is difficult for some people to be constructive on Forums, especially when I am complaining. I am instinctively critical myself. BUT believe I can take blame while examining the people and the process that holds and protects our points to make it better.

My intent here is to #1 - Help others from losing points. #2 - Identify deficiencies in the AZ draw process/programs.

Thanks for the note!

You are trying to find blame by blaming AZ and calling it a scam. Then you doubled down in post #11 and called it a scam again.

 

[Spoony]

My intent with this reply is to #1 point out the problem isn't a deficiency in the AZ draw process, and #2 point out the problem is in the individual pointing fingers and crying that someone/something other than him is to blame.

Tons of folks reading your post applied to the same system after reading the same info you supposedly did, and virtually all of them got it right. Please better help us understand how you not getting it is not your fault, because it sure seems like it is.

It is my 100% fault because I could have reviewed the application and I could have called AZDGF to clarify just about anything. I still maintain that the definition of a draw cycle it is not in the regulations and AZ could do better. Call it blame, crying, complaining, criticism, or whatever makes you feel righteous. Ill be right here reading your blaming, crying, complaining, and criticism.

 

[Spoony]

If your intent was to help others, then the below would have been far more constructive.

Thread title - Don’t be like me.
Thread body - hey all, I had a pile of points in Az. A buddy and I decided to put in together on this super secret, wis bang, unit. Well, I let him apply for me and he applied us for a cow hunt instead of the bull hunt we talked about. I thought that point guard plus was good for three years, not all three draws in one year.

Anyways, just wanted to let people know it’s a bad idea to let someone else apply for you and that point guard plus is only good for one year, not three years. Hopefully that saves someone from making the same mistake.

End thread.

I agree, that would be far more constructive. To be clear, I never called it a scam, I simply asked a question. I do not know it is a scam, other people don't know that it isnt. Unless they helped deveolp PG. I am certain I could have chosen a better more descriptive word, but I didnt. Hindsight is clear.

I am not sure if AZ allows individual applications for a group hunt. This is something I will look into.

 

[wapitibob]

I agree, that would be far more constructive. To be clear, I never called it a scam, I simply asked a question. I do not know it is a scam, other people don't know that it isnt. Unless they helped deveolp PG. I am certain I could have chosen a better more descriptive word, but I didnt. Hindsight is clear.

I am not sure if AZ allows individual applications for a group hunt. This is something I will look into.

You are correct in that AZG&F does not provide a definition of "draw cycle" in either the '25 Regulations nor the'26 'Elk/Pronghorn draw brochure.
The dept outlines how it's used within their main web pages, one spot being under their Big Game Draw, PointGuard area. I have seen the specific definition of "draw cycles" but was unable to relocate it.
In years past I discussed things with a now retired Game Branch Chief and found her receptive. I don't know this new Game Branch Chief but suggest you send an email asking for "draw cycles" to be defined by definition in both the regs and the Elk brochure, and perhaps a clarification as an addl paragraph under the pointguard section of those documents.

Email syntax for AZG&F is <first initial><lastname>@azgfd.gov

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web page :

Which tier of pointguard is the way to go?​

It really comes down to how many species an applicant chooses to hunt and, if successful in the draw, their willingness to risk losing their bonus points in the event they’re unable to participate in that hunt.

For example, an applicant who only applies once a year to hunt deer might choose PointGuard for $10 per species. On the other hand, if an applicant applies for multiple species in any of the fall, spring, or pronghorn and elk draws — or all three — being covered for three consecutive draw cycles from the date of purchase for $25 makes PointGuard Plus a tremendous value.

In either case, PointGuard Plus and PointGuard both provide the same opportunity for an applicant to surrender their hunt permit-tag for any reason and retain their coveted bonus points.

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"I am not sure if AZ allows individual applications for a group hunt. This is something I will look into."

They do not, all apps entered at the same time, and processed on the same card; on a per species basis.

 

[CorbLand]

I agree, that would be far more constructive. To be clear, I never called it a scam, I simply asked a question. I do not know it is a scam, other people don't know that it isnt. Unless they helped deveolp PG. I am certain I could have chosen a better more descriptive word, but I didnt. Hindsight is clear.

I am not sure if AZ allows individual applications for a group hunt. This is something I will look into.

What would make you even think it is a scam?

Do you think it’s a scam because AZ could just allow you to return a tag? That AZ doesn’t have to put an extra charge on the ability to do so?

There are plenty of examples of people that have paid for it, chosen to use it and it has operated exactly the way that it is supposed to.

 

[Spoony]

In years past I discussed things with a now retired Game Branch Chief and found her receptive. I don't know this new Game Branch Chief but suggest you send an email asking for "draw cycles" to be defined by definition in both the regs and the Elk brochure, and perhaps a clarification as an addl paragraph under the pointguard section of those documents.

This is my end goal. To provide a constructive letter explaining what I feel the issue is, and what I think AZ can do to help. My recommendation would be EXACTLY as you mentioned. It could be as easy as an additional bullet point or 2 under the PG section.

Thank you for this information, this was a great help!