Is a 6.5 PRC enough? Do I need a 7mm?

[huntnful]

I’ve said it here before a few times. In watching/teaching hundreds of shooters over the years, shooting the same 8ish lb guns side by side with other shooters and shooting the guns back to back; with the only difference being the cartridges. And again, this predates Rokslide or any recent “small caliber” debates that get argued on here constantly…

In an 8ish lb all in hunting gun, 6.5 PRC with heavy high BC bullets is right around the recoil “threshold” for most “skilled” adult males where we start to see a noticeable drop in continuing to maintain proper shooting mechanics, properly spotting impacts through the scope, and hit rates on vital sized targets at range.

I absolutely believe that. Especially with no muzzle device.

 

[BCDJR]

I absolutely believe that. Especially with no muzzle device.

Same as 20 ga

 

[huntnful]

Same as 20 ga

Another good point and similar parallels. I have a similar view/comparisons with rifles.

I can absolutely shoot a 12 gauge as good as a 20 gauge. But have a higher probability of fatal BB’s with a 12 gauge. So although a 20ga is maybe more fun to shoot. It add 0% benefit to me actually killing a bird or hitting a clay.

Now of course there’s a point where that isn’t realistic. I sure wouldn’t want to shoot a round of sporting clays with 3.5” 2oz turkey loads.

But there’s an area where a broad range of recoil isn’t inhibiting your hit rate, so shooting the upper recoil that has a higher probability of hitting the target is always my choice.

 

[Chris in TN]

I’ve said it here before a few times. In watching/teaching hundreds of shooters over the years, shooting the same 8ish lb guns side by side with other shooters and shooting the guns back to back; with the only difference being the cartridges. And again, this predates Rokslide or any recent “small caliber” debates that get argued on here constantly…

In an 8ish lb all in hunting gun, 6.5 PRC with heavy high BC bullets is right around the recoil “threshold” for most “skilled” adult males where we start to see a noticeable drop in continuing to maintain proper shooting mechanics, properly spotting impacts through the scope, and hit rates on vital sized targets at range.

I honestly don't want to actually shoot an 8-pound anything centerfire unless it's a 5.56. I simply no longer enjoy recoil. I tolerate it in muzzleloaders but even then I've largely gave up on long range muzzleloader hunting. Last year's muzzleloader deer was killed with a powderpuff load I'd worked up for my kids to shoot. Heart shot, he went 60 yards and was done.

I think terminal ballistics gets pretty simple once you ask yourself why you're shooting the animal, what the shot has to accomplish to produce the desired result, and what it takes to do that, and what it costs you to overdo it. For decades we (hunters, collectively) largely ignored those costs to overdoing it. The negative effects of recoil and blast and barrel heat and component cost were simply downplayed because 30-06 was America's cartridge (plus bullet design wasn't as well understood). We also grossly overestimated the need and/or the appropriateness of taking steep raking shots on moving animals where having a larger caliber might produce a marginally better outcome. And I only say that in deference to the realities of physics that say that's true. My personal experience is that I'm generally scared to take that shot anyway. I've had exactly two chances in life at a 'Texas heart shot' and I raised the gun both times but fired neither. Once you sort of mentally commit to broadside-ish shots, how to produce rapid incapacitation gets pretty simple.

 

[Chris in TN]

My dad's 6x6 from two years ago. Probably small to most people here but literally the cumulation of a lifetime of hunting, to him. He doesn't like recoil either. So I loaded some reduced loads for him. .264/140 Sierra TGK at 2925' which is exactly what you can handload a 24" 6.5cm to.

280 yards, both lungs, bull went 15 steps, done.

 

[huntnful]

My dad's 6x6 from two years ago. Probably small to most people here but literally the cumulation of a lifetime of hunting, to him. He doesn't like recoil either. So I loaded some reduced loads for him. .264/140 Sierra TGK at 2925' which is exactly what you can handload a 24" 6.5cm to.

280 yards, both lungs, bull went 15 steps, done. View attachment 934133

That’s an excellent bull! Most people here have never even killed an elk, let alone one of that caliber. Don’t put internet people up on such a pedestal lol. Great combo you setup for your dad!

This is an ACTUAL small bull lol.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

That’s an excellent bull! Most people here have never even killed an elk, let alone one of that caliber. Don’t put internet people up on such a pedestal lol. Great combo you setup for your dad!

This is an ACTUAL small bull lol.
View attachment 934137

Nah that thing is a tank man!

 

[huntnful]

Nah that thing is a tank man!

View attachment 934148

Hahahaha, oh we’re in a competition now.

Antlerless bull….

 

[nm.otter]

You're making me hungry.

 

[Chris in TN]

That’s an excellent bull! Most people here have never even killed an elk, let alone one of that caliber. Don’t put internet people up on such a pedestal lol. Great combo you setup for your dad!

This is an ACTUAL small bull lol.
View attachment 934137

If my kid gets a fair shot (eta: with her 20" 6.5cm) at a bull that size this fall I'll be the happiest guy on the planet.

Also - my dad shot one of those little bulls too, several years ago, with a full power .300Wby/185 Berger. But it took two shots. I'm just sayin'.....

 

[Packmansion]

Well said. I’d rather shoot a light 6mm before I get my teeth kicked in by a light 7mm. There’s not enough benefit vs. recoil if you keep them the same weight.

I build my guns incrementally heavier to mitigate the drawbacks of increased recoil.

10lb 6mm
11lb 6.5mm
12lb 7mm
13lb 30’s

The 6mm still has the least recoil (virtually none), but the others are more than manageable as well.

This is why I like smaller calibers. Most of my guns are in the 6.5 - 8lb range with scope and fully loaded. My 300 wsm is ~8lb fully loaded ready to hunt. When people say they shoot a big magnum well I always wonder how heavy their rifle is and how big of a brake they are running. A friend has a 300 win with a brake and it weighs about 12lbs. It still recoils a good bit but its not bad at all, the butt pad is super soft. I have shot amazing groups with heavy recoiling magnums like a factory tikka 300 win. That slaps you around quite a bit and will bruise you regardless of how much testosterone is coursing through your veins. However since moving away from intentionally flogging myself my groups are way larger on stuff that recoils probably because I don't give a shit anymore. With practice you can 100% shrink those groups, practice that costs you $2 a round if you reload at minimum and up to $4 a round for factory ammo. No thanks... ill stick to shot placement, regular practice and carrying a light rifle.

 

[coyotekilla]

Squirrel gun.

Terminal report of 6.5-7 PRC and 156 Berger’s at 3100fps. This is a top end animal I’d be comfortable shooting with this combo TBH.
View attachment 933891

Ive taken a mouse with a 243 & a rat with a 6.5 grendel, welcome to the club

 

[Greenbelt]

Just because you can shoot a heavy recoiling magnum doesnt mean you should. Same concept. I belive the marginal benefit of a 30 or 7mm magnum is ecplised by all the down sides.

What down sides are those? Immediately killing the animal with a well placed shot? The downsides would be the kick back I assume. I don't hate 6.5's. But if you can carry something that absolutely will kill something why would you not?

 

[Greenbelt]

This is why I like smaller calibers. Most of my guns are in the 6.5 - 8lb range with scope and fully loaded. My 300 wsm is ~8lb fully loaded ready to hunt. When people say they shoot a big magnum well I always wonder how heavy their rifle is and how big of a brake they are running. A friend has a 300 win with a brake and it weighs about 12lbs. It still recoils a good bit but its not bad at all, the butt pad is super soft. I have shot amazing groups with heavy recoiling magnums like a factory tikka 300 win. That slaps you around quite a bit and will bruise you regardless of how much testosterone is coursing through your veins. However since moving away from intentionally flogging myself my groups are way larger on stuff that recoils probably because I don't give a shit anymore. With practice you can 100% shrink those groups, practice that costs you $2 a round if you reload at minimum and up to $4 a round for factory ammo. No thanks... ill stick to shot placement, regular practice and carrying a light rifle.

My 7 mag is 6 pounds with scope

 

[Greenbelt]

I recently shot my first Elk. The guide insisted I use a .30 cal instead of my 6.5 PRC. I obliged with my 30-06 Tikka. The big bull went 3 steps. Great day.

It started me thinking about cartridges. My 6.5 PRC is a Proof Elevation MTR 24" bbl. For me, It is the most accurate rifle I own. It loves the Berger 156 gr EOL that I purchased from Choice and achieves 3010 fps. It shoots UM loaded 147 ELD-m at 2975 fps. My Carbon Six 24" barreled 30-06 Tikka groups 165 gr Accubonds very well at 2940 fps and shoots Barnes 168 gr TTSX even faster at 3025 fps. My friend has a Tikka 24" 7mm Rem Mag that shoots factory 162 gr ELD-x at 2925 fps.

I realize I am comparing different bullets and factory ammo to semi-custom ammo but these are the cartridges I personally saw chronographed. After entering the info in a ballistics calculator, the 6.5 PRC, at 300 yards, has considerably more velocity then any of the others. It has more energy, less drop and less drift plus a higher sectional density. Because of the higher BC bullets the 6.5 PRC has an even bigger advantage at 400 and 500 yards.

Is the 6.5 PRC really the marginal cartridge for Elk simply because it is 6 gr less weight and .020 less diameter? Is the issue that most feel the 180 gr bullet in the 06 or the 7mm is a much better choice for bigger game?

I think guys are getting all worked up about this subject cause they don't like the kick back and that is somehow challenging their manhood. If you don't like the kick back just say it. Do I believe a well placed shot will absolutely kill a elk with any gun? Yes. The most used gun for poachers is a 22. But do I believe most guys are good enough shooters to kill an elk with a 6.5? Nope. I shot guns for a living so recoil doesn't bother me so I guess I have no skin in this game. I'm actually in the market to buy a 6.5 or 6.8 but not for elk or moose. But all these guys breaking down ballistics and kill ability of the 6.5 I agree you are 100% right. I'm just counting the human element of most guys suck at shooting, and most guys shoot well beyond their capabilities. I would assume that's what most of these guides who are demanding larger calibers are thinking to.

 

[coyotekilla]

Shooting a bigger bullet faster will not turn a bullet in the guts into a double lung...

Shooting a smaller bullet slower will help you put that bullet exactly in the right spot.

Some just plain miss no matter what they are shooting

 

[BCDJR]

Just a bit of commentary on this recoil conversation that seems to dominate the argument both ways. I have seen pheasants killed with a .410. I would not choose that gauge for pheasants personally. I know guys who shoot ducks with a .28 gauge but I would not. A perfect shot kills a pheasant with the .410 and same with a duck. But a heck of lot of both are wounded. When folks shoot a big turkey or a goose with a 12 ga think they later think about the recoil? I think the 12 Ga has more recoil than a .300 win mag. When you shoot a bird or clay targets you ignore the recoil somewhat. When you shoot to kill a big game animal you don’t notice the recoil. And you can get back on the animal quickly regardless. You can see your bullet path. Now having said all this if you spend a lot of time on the bench or prone shooting paper targets then the rifle recoil can be an attention getter. So gear up with whatever you need to minimize your range time to aid the setting up of your rifle and the practice with less recoil rifles and cheaper ammo.

 

[Bluefish]

What down sides are those? Immediately killing the animal with a well placed shot? The downsides would be the kick back I assume. I don't hate 6.5's. But if you can carry something that absolutely will kill something why would you not?

Yes, recoil is a down side. Almost any centerfire rifle with the right bullet will quickly kill any animal with a well placed shot. A big bullet going fast won’t kill quickly with a bad shot. After seeing big bullets not just knock over an animal even with good shot placement, I started researching why. Turns out the bullet construction and velocity is much more important than the caliber.

 

[Bluefish]

Just a bit of commentary on this recoil conversation that seems to dominate the argument both ways. I have seen pheasants killed with a .410. I would not choose that gauge for pheasants personally. I know guys who shoot ducks with a .28 gauge but I would not. A perfect shot kills a pheasant with the .410 and same with a duck. But a heck of lot of both are wounded. When folks shoot a big turkey or a goose with a 12 ga think they later think about the recoil? I think the 12 Ga has more recoil than a .300 win mag. When you shoot a bird or clay targets you ignore the recoil somewhat. When you shoot to kill a big game animal you don’t notice the recoil. And you can get back on the animal quickly regardless. You can see your bullet path. Now having said all this if you spend a lot of time on the bench or prone shooting paper targets then the rifle recoil can be an attention getter. So gear up with whatever you need to minimize your range time to aid the setting up of your rifle and the practice with less recoil rifles and cheaper ammo.

You can’t compare different shotguns with lead shot as analogs to caliber/cartridges as it’s all the same projectile going the same speed. The larger bores just have more pellets, so wh wouldn’t they work better? Btw skeet scores really don’t drop off until the 410, so for skeet, the extra payload is not much if any advantage until it’s less than half of a 12 ga.

Now a better comparison is a sub gauge with tss vs a 12 ga with steel. 410’s for turkey, yes, they work well.

 

[BCDJR]

You can’t compare different shotguns with lead shot as analogs to caliber/cartridges as it’s all the same projectile going the same speed. The larger bores just have more pellets, so wh wouldn’t they work better? Btw skeet scores really don’t drop off until the 410, so for skeet, the extra payload is not much if any advantage until it’s less than half of a 12 ga.

Now a better comparison is a sub gauge with tss vs a 12 ga with steel. 410’s for turkey, yes, they work well.

I was talking recoil