Is a 30 cal big game rifle needed anymore?

[5811]

A gel test is anecdotal? That’s an interesting take.

I thought clear gel was meaningless? Or maybe not meaningless but not correlated to anything real?

 

[AZ_Hunter]

A lot of people here are saying that small calibers work well with “today’s bullets”, I guess meaning tipped match bullets, but there’s really nothing advanced about those bullets besides their sleekness. I don’t think the results in the .223/6/6.5 kill threads are all that different from what I’ve seen from gamekings or other “soft” cup and core bullets that have been around for decades. Someone else with lots of experience please correct me if you disagree, but the trend seems to be less about “modern” bullets being better, and more about modern hunters being more willing to go against the traditional logic of high weight retention and deep penetration.

For example, The Nosler ballistic tip was invented in 1984, it’s hardly a “modern” bullet anymore but it performs great.
A Sierra gameking 85 grain BTHP out of a 6mm remington/.243 is a combo I would put against a similar weight TMK/ELD-M any day out to 300 yards, and it’s been around longer than most of us have been alive

You’re not wrong, however there is more to it than that. The “new” bullets are very heavy for caliber and consequently very long. The increased weight results in higher SD and the longer length also changes the wound characteristics.

An analogy would be to think of an empty beer can. Now think of an 18” tall beer can. The standard size beer can takes less time to crush flat than the taller can. This increase in time for deformation in the longer bullets, coupled with the higher initial SD, translate into more initial penetration compared to similarly constructed shorter (traditional) cup and core bullets; thereby greatly improving the overall terminal performance.

 

[plebe]

Didnt know Jerry was a scientist?

There are two recent studies that were done on the affect of 50 BMG on humans. One by the NIH which showed overpressure affects on cerebral tissue and function. Good short read.

Overpressure Exposure From .50-Caliber Rifle Training Is Associated With Increased Amyloid Beta Peptides in Serum

Background: Overpressure (OP) is an increase in air pressure above normal atmospheric levels. Military personnel are repeatedly exposed to low levels of OP caused by various weapon systems. Repeated OP may increase risk of neurological disease or psychological ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The second by which was researched and published by Dr Andrew at the White Mountain Forensics lab is conclusive:

As the bullet enters the body it crushes and shreds tissue in its path – this creates a permanent cavity – the “bullet hole”. In addition, the energy of the impact is dissipated in a shock wave that radially flings surrounding tissue away from the path of the projectile, creating a cavity larger than the diameter of the bullet, this is the temporary stress cavity. The temporary stress cavity exists for around 5 to 10 milliseconds with a series of gradually smaller pulsations & contractions before the formation of a permanent wound track.

The ultimate extent of the wound is determined by the kinetic energy on impact, extent of the temporary cavity and the amount of bullet fragmentation.

.357 MAGNUM WOUND – Wound profiles by Martin Fackler *

When a 50 BMG bullet hits a human body, it can cause a permanent cavity, or "bullet hole", by shredding and crushing tissue in its path. The impact's energy also creates a shock wave that pushes surrounding tissue away from the bullet's path, forming a temporary cavity that's larger than the bullet's diameter. The amount of force a 50 BMG round can produce depends on the weapon it's fired from, the type of bullet and powder used, and can range from 10,000 to 15,000 foot-pounds force (14,000 to 20,000 J)

Energy and pressure waves from ALL PROJECTILES disrupting human and animals is ruled by kinetic energy and waves of pressure. A general rule - The larger and faster the projectile, the additive affect.

I don’t remember him saying he’s a scientist….Regardless, I simply posted the video because the picture that was shared by another member doesn’t really tell the full story imo.

Anyway, I don’t know precisely what .50BMGs and famous head shooting elephant marksman have to do with what gun to recommend to a new hunter for hunting “anything in the lower 48.”

To that matter, what caliber a person needs/chooses probably has more to do with his/herself than anything else.

 

[roadrunner]

A gel test is anecdotal? That’s an interesting take.

Didn't say it was...

 

[Ozarkansas]

You’re not wrong, however there is more to it than that. The “new” bullets are very heavy for caliber and consequently very long. The increased weight results in higher SD and the longer length also changes the wound characteristics.

An analogy would be to think of an empty beer can. Now think of an 18” tall beer can. The standard size beer can takes less time to crush flat than the taller can. This increase in time for deformation in the longer bullets, coupled with the higher initial SD, translate into more initial penetration compared to similarly constructed shorter (traditional) cup and core bullets; thereby greatly improving the overall terminal performance.

Right, but it’s not so much that there weren’t bullets that long back in the day, it’s just that those long bullets are becoming the norm. 140-160 grain 6.5 bullets and 150-175 grain 7mm bullets are practically as old as smokeless powder. Those have S.D.s getting into the .3s

Outside of those two outliers, I have a 1982 Lyman load manual that has data for 117 grain 25-06 and 150 grain .270 loads. The 77 grain TMK that’s so popular here has the same SD (.219) as a 90 grain .243, 107 grain 6.5, or 117 grain .270 bullet. It’s not a uniquely long bullet by any means.

All that to say that I agree with you, I just think A better understanding of terminal ballistics, rather than new bullets, is what’s driving people to smaller calibers.

 

[RockAndSage]

Absolutely, 100% false. 50BMG FMJ creates pistol caliber wounds in tissue.

^^^ There's a lot more truth to this than non-witnesses can really appreciate - and if I wanted to slap the crap out of everyone to that truth, to make people go google and youtube the daylights out of it to learn for themselves, it would have been hard to come up with a better way to do it than these exact words.

People don't realize how anemic .50 BMG velocities are - it's sub 2000fps at about 600 yards. And even a big, heavy FMJ is still an FMJ.

The lead-slug .50-110 buffalo cartridge was right around 1800fps at the muzzle, depending on bullet weight .

At those velocities, that lead buffalo slug and a FMG of the same diameter are pretty much penciling through whatever they hit, not creating massive temporary wound channels - they don't have the velocity for that, and they just aren't dumping much of their energy. They just keep it with them and keep on trucking through whatever's on the other side, too.

When a 50 BMG bullet hits a human body, it can cause a permanent cavity, or "bullet hole", by shredding and crushing tissue in its path. The impact's energy also creates a shock wave that pushes surrounding tissue away from the bullet's path, forming a temporary cavity that's larger than the bullet's diameter. The amount of force a 50 BMG round can produce depends on the weapon it's fired from, the type of bullet and powder used, and can range from 10,000 to 15,000 foot-pounds force (14,000 to 20,000 J)

Energy and pressure waves from ALL PROJECTILES disrupting human and animals is ruled by kinetic energy and waves of pressure. A general rule - The larger and faster the projectile, the additive affect.

All of this is true - but it's not all the story.

The energy calculations of those papers are just incomplete to the point of being wrong if they don't calculate exactly how much energy is actually transferred into the target - which means asking, how fast is the bullet going on exit? And what does that mean for how much energy actually went into the animal?

At relatively short distances, .50 FMJ, .500 Nitro Express dangerous game solids, .50-110 lead buffalo rifle slugs aren't putting much more than a .50 crush cavity into a target. They certainly kill well, but differently from the frag of a match bullet - which is more like a contact-distance shotgun blast.

There's another factor in all of this that's not mentioned - energy dynamics, of applied energy over time. A slow, heavy bullet may transfer a lot of energy, but it's happening a hell of a lot slower than something out of a Lazzeroni or a Weatherby. And Roy Weatherby was adamant that something different seemed to start happening to the animals right around 3000fps impact velocity. Muzzle velocity of 50BMG is 2800fps-ish.

I personally think Weatherby's observations have something to do with a combo of two things. First, is that hydrostatic shockwave hitting and traveling the central-nervous system a lot faster and further from the bullet channel, than happens with a slower-moving bullet. That may also account partly for how unpredictable it is to get a lights-out, DRT kill with a body shot - velocity of energy transfer through different animal tissue and bone, and how far that impact channel is from the CNS.

The second factor, I believe, is that above that 3000fps mark there may be a different kind of shearing effect from that energy on the tissue, when it's applied substantially faster and the tissue doesn't have as much time to just move or be elastic. In those microseconds it may behave a bit more solid with that energy applied fast enough. In a way, it's like the difference between jumping off a diving board, or jumping off a bridge - water might as well be clay or concrete to a falling, hydrated meat bag, past a certain velocity. That super-fast shearing effect would cause a more powerful initial shockwave followed by much more rapid blood-loss from larger volume of broken vessels of all kinds.

Which is, essentially, what much smaller fragmenting match bullets seem to do, at much slower velocities - dumping 100% of their energy much faster, but with the mechanical sheering of frag through tissue.

 

[Billy Goat]

I think it's about time someone posts the videos of how a 50bmg has so much energy going through the air, it doesn't even need to hit the target.


Bullet just cuts heads off passing close by.

Or that's what they say at the gun counter.

 

[william schmaltz]

I think you guys are within a few thousand pages of everyone coming to agreement on this. Keep at it!

 

[roadrunner]

^^^ There's a lot more truth to this than non-witnesses can really appreciate - and if I wanted to slap the crap out of everyone to that truth, to make people go google and youtube the daylights out of it to learn for themselves, it would have been hard to come up with a better way to do it than these exact words.

People don't realize how anemic .50 BMG velocities are - it's sub 2000fps at about 600 yards. And even a big, heavy FMJ is still an FMJ.

The lead-slug .50-110 buffalo cartridge was right around 1800fps at the muzzle, depending on bullet weight .

At those velocities, that lead buffalo slug and a FMG of the same diameter are pretty much penciling through whatever they hit, not creating massive temporary wound channels - they don't have the velocity for that, and they just aren't dumping much of their energy. They just keep it with them and keep on trucking through whatever's on the other side, too.






All of this is true - but it's not all the story.

The energy calculations of those papers are just incomplete to the point of being wrong if they don't calculate exactly how much energy is actually transferred into the target - which means asking, how fast is the bullet going on exit? And what does that mean for how much energy actually went into the animal?

At relatively short distances, .50 FMJ, .500 Nitro Express dangerous game solids, .50-110 lead buffalo rifle slugs aren't putting much more than a .50 crush cavity into a target. They certainly kill well, but differently from the frag of a match bullet - which is more like a contact-distance shotgun blast.

There's another factor in all of this that's not mentioned - energy dynamics, of applied energy over time. A slow, heavy bullet may transfer a lot of energy, but it's happening a hell of a lot slower than something out of a Lazzeroni or a Weatherby. And Roy Weatherby was adamant that something different seemed to start happening to the animals right around 3000fps impact velocity. Muzzle velocity of 50BMG is 2800fps-ish.

I personally think Weatherby's observations have something to do with a combo of two things. First, is that hydrostatic shockwave hitting and traveling the central-nervous system a lot faster and further from the bullet channel, than happens with a slower-moving bullet. That may also account partly for how unpredictable it is to get a lights-out, DRT kill with a body shot - velocity of energy transfer through different animal tissue and bone, and how far that impact channel is from the CNS.

The second factor, I believe, is that above that 3000fps mark there may be a different kind of shearing effect from that energy on the tissue, when it's applied substantially faster and the tissue doesn't have as much time to just move or be elastic. In those microseconds it may behave a bit more solid with that energy applied fast enough. In a way, it's like the difference between jumping off a diving board, or jumping off a bridge - water might as well be clay or concrete to a falling, hydrated meat bag, past a certain velocity. That super-fast shearing effect would cause a more powerful initial shockwave followed by much more rapid blood-loss from larger volume of broken vessels of all kinds.

Which is, essentially, what much smaller fragmenting match bullets seem to do, at much slower velocities - dumping 100% of their energy much faster, but with the mechanical sheering of frag through tissue.

Conservation of Energy. Google the daylights out of it and some of this might actually start to make a little more sense...

 

[RockAndSage]

I think it's about time someone posts the videos of how a 50bmg has so much energy going through the air, it doesn't even need to hit the target.


Bullet just cuts heads off passing close by.

Or that's what they say at the gun counter.

Lol, yep. It's about the biggest tactical fudd myth out there.

 

[RockAndSage]

I think it's about time someone posts the videos of how a 50bmg has so much energy going through the air, it doesn't even need to hit the target.


Bullet just cuts heads off passing close by.

Or that's what they say at the gun counter.

This is a surgeon covering a Garand Thumb 50 BMG ballistics gel episode, and also mentions the ND to the wounded Marine.

 

[Billy Goat]

Lol, yep. It's about the biggest tactical fudd myth out there.

I was gonna link something titled 50bmg TMK, but couldn't decide between The Jackal scene with Jack Black or a Rick Roll.

Figured everyone expected the RR so no real.point.

 

[RockAndSage]

I was gonna link something titled 50bmg TMK, but couldn't decide between The Jackal scene with Jack Black or a Rick Roll.

Figured everyone expected the RR so no real.point.

Lol. Didn't Astley just kill his channel though? Much sad. Had something like a billion and a half views.

 

[Reburn]

Lol. Didn't Astley just kill his channel though? Much sad. Had something like a billion and a half views.

Calling @Reburn

Sorry brother, your reign of terror is over. Good has once again triumphed.....

rokslide.com

Some people will believe anything.

 

[RockAndSage]

Calling @Reburn

Sorry brother, your reign of terror is over. Good has once again triumphed.....

rokslide.com

Some people will believe anything.

Lol. I'm not sure if you're cruel, or glorious. You made my day, you sweet, beautiful man.

 

[Formidilosus]

Didnt know Jerry was a scientist?

There are two recent studies that were done on the affect of 50 BMG on humans. One by the NIH which showed overpressure affects on cerebral tissue and function. Good short read.

Overpressure Exposure From .50-Caliber Rifle Training Is Associated With Increased Amyloid Beta Peptides in Serum

Background: Overpressure (OP) is an increase in air pressure above normal atmospheric levels. Military personnel are repeatedly exposed to low levels of OP caused by various weapon systems. Repeated OP may increase risk of neurological disease or psychological ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Are you purposely being obtuse?

The second by which was researched and published by Dr Andrew at the White Mountain Forensics lab is conclusive:

As the bullet enters the body it crushes and shreds tissue in its path – this creates a permanent cavity – the “bullet hole”. In addition, the energy of the impact is dissipated in a shock wave that radially flings surrounding tissue away from the path of the projectile, creating a cavity larger than the diameter of the bullet, this is the temporary stress cavity. The temporary stress cavity exists for around 5 to 10 milliseconds with a series of gradually smaller pulsations & contractions before the formation of a permanent wound track.

The ultimate extent of the wound is determined by the kinetic energy on impact, extent of the temporary cavity and the amount of bullet fragmentation.

.357 MAGNUM WOUND – Wound profiles by Martin Fackler *

When a 50 BMG bullet hits a human body, it can cause a permanent cavity, or "bullet hole", by shredding and crushing tissue in its path. The impact's energy also creates a shock wave that pushes surrounding tissue away from the bullet's path, forming a temporary cavity that's larger than the bullet's diameter. The amount of force a 50 BMG round can produce depends on the weapon it's fired from, the type of bullet and powder used, and can range from 10,000 to 15,000 foot-pounds force (14,000 to 20,000 J)

Energy and pressure waves from ALL PROJECTILES disrupting human and animals is ruled by kinetic energy and waves of pressure. A general rule - The larger and faster the projectile, the additive affect.

Once you again- you are factually, 100% incorrect. FMJ 50cals typically produce relatively small diameter wounds.

 

[Article 4]

^^^ There's a lot more truth to this than non-witnesses can really appreciate - and if I wanted to slap the crap out of everyone to that truth, to make people go google and youtube the daylights out of it to learn for themselves, it would have been hard to come up with a better way to do it than these exact words.

People don't realize how anemic .50 BMG velocities are - it's sub 2000fps at about 600 yards. And even a big, heavy FMJ is still an FMJ.

The lead-slug .50-110 buffalo cartridge was right around 1800fps at the muzzle, depending on bullet weight .

At those velocities, that lead buffalo slug and a FMG of the same diameter are pretty much penciling through whatever they hit, not creating massive temporary wound channels - they don't have the velocity for that, and they just aren't dumping much of their energy. They just keep it with them and keep on trucking through whatever's on the other side, too.






All of this is true - but it's not all the story.

The energy calculations of those papers are just incomplete to the point of being wrong if they don't calculate exactly how much energy is actually transferred into the target - which means asking, how fast is the bullet going on exit? And what does that mean for how much energy actually went into the animal?

At relatively short distances, .50 FMJ, .500 Nitro Express dangerous game solids, .50-110 lead buffalo rifle slugs aren't putting much more than a .50 crush cavity into a target. They certainly kill well, but differently from the frag of a match bullet - which is more like a contact-distance shotgun blast.

There's another factor in all of this that's not mentioned - energy dynamics, of applied energy over time. A slow, heavy bullet may transfer a lot of energy, but it's happening a hell of a lot slower than something out of a Lazzeroni or a Weatherby. And Roy Weatherby was adamant that something different seemed to start happening to the animals right around 3000fps impact velocity. Muzzle velocity of 50BMG is 2800fps-ish.

I personally think Weatherby's observations have something to do with a combo of two things. First, is that hydrostatic shockwave hitting and traveling the central-nervous system a lot faster and further from the bullet channel, than happens with a slower-moving bullet. That may also account partly for how unpredictable it is to get a lights-out, DRT kill with a body shot - velocity of energy transfer through different animal tissue and bone, and how far that impact channel is from the CNS.

The second factor, I believe, is that above that 3000fps mark there may be a different kind of shearing effect from that energy on the tissue, when it's applied substantially faster and the tissue doesn't have as much time to just move or be elastic. In those microseconds it may behave a bit more solid with that energy applied fast enough. In a way, it's like the difference between jumping off a diving board, or jumping off a bridge - water might as well be clay or concrete to a falling, hydrated meat bag, past a certain velocity. That super-fast shearing effect would cause a more powerful initial shockwave followed by much more rapid blood-loss from larger volume of broken vessels of all kinds.

Which is, essentially, what much smaller fragmenting match bullets seem to do, at much slower velocities - dumping 100% of their energy much faster, but with the mechanical sheering of frag through tissue.

Agree with much of what you said but with some caveats.
Also true that in the case of a hunting rifle, most guys would never want to carry one in the field, much less shoot a critter with one

There are tons of military projectiles that are fired out of a 50 cal. from 655 gr (42 g) ADI, 700 gr (45 g) Barnes, and 661 gr M33 Ball and SLAP rounds etc...

Ball Ammunition will do more "damage" due to the bullet properties and it is flying slower (2300 fps). Bullet expansion and energy staying more "inside" the target. e.g. tearing off a limb which is real, as has happened.

SLAP ammunition flies at around 4000 fps and uses a tungsten penetrator which will likely create less damage to slipping through. Sort of like APDST in a tank. The kinetic energy transfer is there however it is designed for cnaviational energy transfer in "bringing the shrapnel and tissue" with the projectile as it passes through. This would go through a human and barely leave more than a finger sized hole, but nonetheless, carries energy transfer and obviously death.

I am not familiar with this notion of shearing....can you provide some background on that if possible?

Now how is any of this relevant to what caliber a guy should choose for a first hunting rifle. Probably not much....but when we talk about energy transfer as a part of killing, it is relevant to the caliber and to the size and speed of the projectile we would use to hunt with.

I am ALWAYS a fan of hitting an animal with the biggest and fasted projectile that I can. Period dot. I owe it to the animal to make the most ethical kill shot that I can making the biggest hole I can and transferring the most energy that I can. Probably not going to be hunting with a 50 anytime soon though.

 

[Article 4]

Are you purposely being obtuse?







Once you again- you are factually, 100% incorrect. FMJ 50cals typically produce relatively small diameter wounds.

Point one - Nope, just dislike anecdotal evidence as a single data point from a guy who "did something" t


Point 2. Wrong - You always grab one data point to make a broad point. Great, you found one...

When the NIH did studies on multiple 50 cal projectiles which the MIL uses about 5 of them, only SLAP, tungsten penetrating, and barnes left pencil sized wounds at very close range. They are designed for armored targets which makes sense - if used as intended as an area or sniper weapon on humans at longer ranges, a 50 cal makes large holes and tears apart humans.

The Geneva Convention on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Certain Conventional Weapons, also known as the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons, prohibits or restricts the use of weapons that may be excessively injurious or have indiscriminate effects. The convention was originally adopted in 1980 and has since been amended and expanded by states parties. As of October 2023, the convention covers the following weapons: land mines, booby traps, incendiary devices, blinding laser weapons, and clearance of explosive remnants of war that are deemed excessively inhumane (it does not say 50 cal, or 20mm expressly etc...but they are eluded to in this portion of the determination)

 

[Billy Goat]

I am ALWAYS a fan of hitting an animal with the biggest and fasted projectile that I can. Period dot. I owe it to the animal to make the most ethical kill shot that I can making the biggest hole I can and transferring the most energy that I can. Probably not going to be hunting with a 50 anytime soon though.

So I take it you are a fan of the 285 gr eldm?

I'd guess from a .338 extreme?

Or where is the line?

 

[Article 4]

So I take it you are a fan of the 285 gr eldm?

I'd guess from a .338 extreme?

Or where is the line?

The line is the biggest caliber that I own for hunting. Currently it is a 30 Nosler running 210 ABLR's. Why ABLRs? Cause it is the most accurate and fastest bonded projectile that my rifle likes. I generally prefer a bonded bullet for heavier game

JAMA did a study on 511 bodies sustaining gunshot wounds in 2018 and found quote " Shootings with larger-caliber handguns were more deadly but no more sustained or accurate than shootings with smaller-caliber handguns." Meaning in general words, Bigger bullets do more damage and are no less or more accurate than smaller calibers or if you like - Big bullets kill better.