Ideal Bear Defense Long Gun?

[marshland_max]

12 ga pump all day. I have carried similar hiking in bear country,

 

[Unckebob]

A

Hey everyone,

We are going to be canoeing the length of the Mackenzie River (1100 Miles from Hay River to Tuktoyaktuk) in the Northwest Territories of Canada this summer (2023) and I thought I had my, Canada Legal, bear defense guns sorted out. This will be for defense against Grizzly and potentially Polar Bear as we reach the Arctic Ocean at the end of the expedition. We were going to take the following:

1 X Stoeger M3000 Semi Auto Freedom Defense 12 Gauge with Pistol Grip shotgun 5 + 1
Ammo: Brenneke 3" Black Magic Magnum Slugs (Stoeger would be 6 + 1 with 3" Mags) TAYLOR KNOCKOUT FOMRULA AT 25 YDS = 76
1X Retay Masai Mara Warden 12 Gauge shotgun 4 + 1
Ammo: Brenneke Special Forces Maximum Barrier Penetrating Magnum 2 3/4" (This would maintain the 4 +1 capacity) TAYLOR KNOCKOUT FOMRULA AT 25 YDS = 84

Unfortunately, Canada's gun laws may change soon, making even some hunting shotguns/rifles illegal (Namely if the firearm can hold, or there are parts to make it hold, more than 5 rounds in the magazine/tube it will be a RESTRICTED firearm in Canada and hence, illegal). So...our Stoeger would be illegal, as would any shotgun for which there were factory or aftermarket magazine extensions available. Which is pretty much most semi-automatic shotguns on the market that are worth carrying (Benelli M2, Beretta 1300, etc.).

I'm considering the following for a replacement for the Stoeger:

Benelli R1 .338 Win Mag with a 24" Barrel
Ammo: 250 grain Swift A-frame Bear Hammer from Pendleton Ammunition (2600 FPS from a 24" Barrel) TAYLOR KNOCKOUT FOMRULA AT 25 YDS = 31

What I really want is for Benelli to make the following:

Benelli R1 in 35 Whelen with an 18 1/2" - 20" Barrel. 5 round magazine + 1 in the chamber. Iron sights and a rail on the receiver for a quick acquisition type optic
Ammo: Hendershots Extreme Custom 35 Whelen 280 Grain Swift A-Frame TAYLOR KNOCKOUT FOMRULA AT 25 YDS = 32

In my opinion, this would be the ultimate woodsman/ Bear Defense rifle.

I am basing my caliber/ammo combination decisions off of the Taylor Knockout Formula, which can be found here:

Taylor KO Calculator | Energy | Momentum | Bullet

It is an interesting formula.

Remember, this is for defense against Grizzly and Polar Bear at close range, so long range terminal ballistics are not really a factor, any shot taken will likely be inside of 50 Yards, hell, likely inside of 25 Yards. What are your guys thoughts?

Matt

Although they are no longer in production, there are 338 win mag Browning BAR's out there. They would seem to be compliant with the magazine capacity limit. They have 3 round mags.

 

[Zerk]

Gamemaster 760 in 30-06

Not much can survive that. Trust me.

Not me. I have a love hate with that gun. You should not have to rack a rifle hard to go into battery, or use small base dies. Factory ammo should be fine.

Plus bear hunting oce, when I went rack my follow up shot. the slide got stuck in my jacket, which was loose. I was jammed up. Weird one. I suppose that could happen with 12 ga, Maybe bigger slide on shotgun.

Also why choose a 30-06 for this????

I

 

[49ereric]

@Matt Magolan

I've some audacity telling a man whose been on Arctic expeditions what gun to bring. I've never been to the Arctic, but I have used guns in extreme cold weather. Your affinity for the semi-auto is apparent, but have you operated a semi- auto in extreme cold? I too have subconscious mastery of the semi-autos, but I've only been able to mitigate Murphy's Law. I've goose hunted in negative temperatures and witnessed enough semi-auto guns malfunction. Cold constricts metals and alloys constrict differently than steel. In the very cold I can watch my Browning A5 3.5" 12ga bolt slide slowly forwards in attempt to return to battery. No matter how clean, or which lube to no lube would help. The receiver at the least constricts and the bolt is retarded by the shrinking receiver. So get a steel receiver?...Browning BAR Safari 338WM in -20 windchill conditions. I had failure to return to battery.

I've been a Glock owner and user for 20yrs. Untold number of rounds fired through Glocks, instructed others on the use of Glocks, trusted my life to Glock. 100% confidence in Glock based upon 100% reliability in my experience. Until one day...

I blood trailed a wounded TX hog in 90F. heat. I took my Glock 41 45 ACP duty pistol. (The one I had on my hip everyday for my day job) While tracking I bumped into two piglets in the shrubs. I smoked both piglets with one shot a piece. Boom, Boom, squeeeeaaaalllll! Momma took a straight line charge at me. I thought, "OH YES! Mag dump into her head!" Instead is was "OH NO I have a dead trigger". Looked to see my slide locked back and while I was performing immediate action on the Glock, a piglet flopped in the grass and drew the sow's attention off me to her piglet. (She diverted at maybe 4yds from me. I did take note that I could see ultimate concern in her face. I know its strange, but I did. Whale eyed) While she was checking out her piglet I got my Glock back in action and smoked her on her run away. Tell me that doesn't put a pin in your balloon of faith! I would have been better off with a revolver in that instance. F'N Murphy!

A stainless double rifle with composite stock and red fiber optic front sight would be my dangerous game gun. I don't think that exists and the double guns I ever see are 10K plus and French fancy grade walnut. NOPE

A bolt gun is not a fast operating dangerous game gun. CRF style prevents short stroking, but the 4 movements of the bolt is just not the fastest. You also don't want anything with an "eye box". Keep the scopes off the gun.

#1 pick is a pump 12 gauge. At least you have mechanical advantage or influence over the action if it gets sticky in cold weather.

#2 Pick is the 45-70 lever gun. Same mechanical advantage in cold weather.

Maybe up north in the severe cold they are wise enough to clean with kerosene and not use oil.
lot of guys had issues late in deer season here with semi autos due to @-20° and surprised how few knew what to use.

 

[Fatcamp]

Here is a pretty cool example of a guy under pressure operating a bolt gun well. Wild how differently these two men handle pressure.

 

[Shraggs]

I agree, pump 12 g or lever. Big fan of the browning blr pistol grip in 358 very hot loaded we it’s partion or hammer

 

[492slayer]

I have a Browning . 375 H&H Magnum A-Bolt Stainless Stalker in left hand that is a tack driver with 300gr A-Frame bullets ( Factory loads). From all I've read, a .338 Win Mag would be the minimum I'd consider for Alaskan Brown bear, Grizzly or Polar Bear. I think I'd feel a bit nervous with the 12ga route, but have never personally tried to stop a bear at close quarters with a slug gun.

 

[Matt Magolan]

Interesting suggestions guys, I appreciate it, a few specific answers to specific posts above:

J Batt:
Excellent point about the ergonomics of the Left Handed bolt gun, the bolt tearing up our hand if you try to maintain grip!

Ginger Snap:
Good info, thank you. We will be there in the summer. We may see temps into the low 30's as we reach the Arctic Ocean, but that would not be for long stretches, probably more like the 50's on average. So, it shouldn't be extreme cold. Even bolt guns suffer from icing, part of the reason the Accuracy International rifles have de-icing cuts in the bolt group.

Zerk:
Not sure why you got that I was OK with Dying, I'm not, I am proficient with a pump gun and carried one back in 1997 (Winchester 1300 Marine Defender), but I'm faster (and more accurate) with a semiauto shotgun. Back in 2004, I trained hard with a Benelli M1 Tactical (Benelli actually sponsored the trip by selling us some SHOT show demo guns at a DEEP discount). We trained with a DOJ Instructor who helped us work on our speed shooting and I brought the old Winchester with me to training sessions to see the difference. There was no question which gun was faster. The Benelli M1 Tactical has since been banned by the Canadian Government it is listed by model in their "Assault Weapons" ban list (Likely the reason the M2 came out so quickly after the M1). The Benelli has been a reliable weapon for me, especially when firing Brenneke magnum ammo with the Inertia Drive.

MallardSX2:
30-06 seems a bit underpowered for close in work, premium ammo in .308 has similar ballistics these days, I think I'll go bigger .338 Rifle and 12 gauge in shotgun.

Fatcamp:
IN AFRICA there is also a long tradition of a guy standing behind you with a .416 Rigby or even a 500 Nitro Express Double Rifle to save your bacon if you don't make the shot with your bolt gun. I've read enough Peter Hathaway Capstick in my youth to know that! Ha ha.

Awesome video, I've been seeing a lot of videos of Guides, both hunting and fishing, in AK firing warning shots as a charging Brown Bear closes in. Interesting.

Rich M: we will be fishing a lot!

Keep it coming guys, interesting dialogue.

 

[Matt Magolan]

FatCamp:

Two classic African rifles are the PH’s Rigby double barrel in .470 Nitro Express and the client’s Rigby Mauser in .416 Rigby. One shot from the .416 handled this buffalo, but the big bore was there as backup if needed. Ron Spomer

From the article:

The Most Iconic Rifles and Cartridges from African Safaris

The iconic guns and loads ever used by safari hunters.

www.outdoorlife.com

 

[Fatcamp]

FatCamp:

Two classic African rifles are the PH’s Rigby double barrel in .470 Nitro Express and the client’s Rigby Mauser in .416 Rigby. One shot from the .416 handled this buffalo, but the big bore was there as backup if needed. Ron Spomer

From the article:

The Most Iconic Rifles and Cartridges from African Safaris

The iconic guns and loads ever used by safari hunters.

www.outdoorlife.com

Very cool!

Like I said, I'm reading "Hunter" again.





A much younger Boddington and the late David Ommanney (Winchester’s “man in Africa” in the 1960s) admiring African legend JA Hunter’s last double .500. The asking price, with provenance from Hunter, was $10,000, which I didn’t have. Today that rifle is 30-some years older…and worth a whole lot more.


In the end I want s big rifle, which to me starts at .375. I have no use for such a thing but you do, so a big rifle gets my vote.


A Benelli pump with rifle sights and slugs would be the most effective weapon for me, but I have untold rounds, game, and miles walked with a pump shotgun.

 

[Matt Magolan]

Fatcamp, sounds like you and I have similar taste in reading material. Here is a pic of just one of my book shelves.

I got my copy of Hunter quite by accident at a thrift store for .50 cents when I was about 12 years old! It was one of my favorite books from the time I was 12 until I was about 19 and went off to college. My life took me a different direction, but I wanted to be a Big Game Hunter in Africa for many years as a kid.

 

[Fatcamp]

Fatcamp, sounds like you and I have similar taste in reading material. Here is a pic of just one of my book shelves.

I got my copy of Hunter quite by accident at a thrift store for .50 cents when I was about 12 years old! It was one of my favorite books from the time I was 12 until I was about 19 and went off to college. My life took me a different direction, but I wanted to be a Big Game Hunter in Africa for many years as a kid.

View attachment 499879

My copy came from a random yard sale. Not a single other hunting related item, just that book.

I have read many others, but these are the ones I have in my possession.



Our local public library used to have an amazing collection. It was purged years ago because of unfriendly words towards African natives. So sad.

 

[VernAK]

Matt,
You may be over-thinking some of this. I have canoed and fished extensively in YT for several decades. I have a PAL [Canadian Possession and Acquisition License] so I've been exposed to Canadian regulations.

I would check further on that pistol grip on the shotgun. It may be legal but may raise a red flag at the border. It's been my experience that regulations change with the shift change at border crossings. A few years ago, the lass at Beaver Creek Customs asked my buddy what the extra barrel was for on his double gun. It's best if your gun doesn't look military in any way. Magazine capacity is currently an issue also.

Any of the better Brenneke slugs in a RELIABLE pump 12 ga is hard to beat. You may encounter blowing sand that can foul an auto.

A friend with ADFG shot several dozen bears [black and grizzly] from a heli and the local folks recovering the meat complained about the Brenneke slugs ruining too much meat. After switching to Foster slugs, they were happy as they could eat right up to the bullet hole although there were many more bullet holes.

We do put Critter Gitter alarms on the beach.

Your trip will be interesting, but I won't be there this year as my partner is awaiting surgery. We'll probably make a road tour of YT in the Canol Road area and Robert Campbell Highway.

Good luck!

 

[Zerk]

Zerk:
Not sure why you got that I was OK with Dying

It was just a joke, cause you said you carried one gun, but now your family is there you want more.

 

[Matt Magolan]

Zerk:
No worries, sometimes it's hard to read people's intonation in a forum post!

VernAK: Thanks for the insights, all good points. None of our current guns have pistol-grip stocks, exactly for the reason you mention, don't want any issues at the border, including extra scrutiny just because the guns look scary. Ha ha, yeah, I've been known to overanalyze things a bit, however, my quest for the perfect Bear Defense Rifle has been an enjoyable rabbit hole (mental exercise) to go down. And on that note...

I found something very interesting from Zee Germans:

The Merkel SR1 chambered in 9.3X62
PROS: Looks like a formidable round coupled with a well respected rifle, kind of a cross between a .375 H&H and a 35 Whelen. 5 + 1 capacity with a detachable box magazine.

NOT SURE IF IT'S A PRO OR CON: 19.7" Barrel, so that may lower the speed of the bullet as compared to ammo manufacturers numbers. But on the other hand, would make it swing nicely and handle speedily in a self defense bear situation.

CONS: From my perspective as a canoe and sea kayak expedition guy, which means the rifle will be used in both fresh and salt water, is that they don't make it with a synthetic stock (Wood is great for a kitchen table, but not a rifle stock! I apologize in advance to any purist who reads this.).

SR1 Basic | Guns, Semi-automatic rifles, SR1 | Merkel

SR1 Basic The SR1 builds on tested technology, as its construction principle has been proven a hundred-thousand-fold: The self-cleaning system of the gas-pressure self-loader with a twisting bolt-head lock allows for the reliable use of a large ammunition range. Intelligently solved: At the...

www.merkel-die-jagd.de

The US Importer seems kind of strange, they have a contact e-mail on .aol, I didn't even know AOL still existed, so I'm waiting to call them to get a price and availability on the rifle by phone.

AMMO:
...And on the upside, many custom ammo makers (Like Hendershot's) in the US and even some gun-shops have the ammo (Swift Ammo) in stock. That's more than can be said for any heavy for caliber .338 Win Mag ammo right now. (All on backorder most places, actually, bleeping, everywhere).

SWIFT Ammunition 9.3X62 (9.3mm = .366) Swift A-Frame 286 grain at 2396 fps at the muzzle makes for a Taylor Knock out of 36 (Available RIGHT NOW)

Hendershot's Extreme Swift A Frame 286 grain at 2300 TKO = 34.3 (ALSO Available RIGHT NOW)
Hendershot's Extreme Swift A Frame 300 grain at 2200 TKO = 34.5 (ALSO Available RIGHT NOW)

Apparently there is another semiauto from the German maker Sauer, which is the 303 in 9.3X62 and it comes in synthetic with a barrel a bit longer. It is probably, waaaay too expensive for my means, but interesting none-the-less.

The rabbit hole just keeps going.

Here is an article by Spomer about the 9.3X62 round:

The Surprising 9.3x62 Rifle Cartridge — Ron Spomer Outdoors

The 9.3x62? As a firearms and hunting writer I expect to discover and investigate new guns and cartridges. I don’t anticipate discovering an old cartridge that’s trending. But this one is. The 9.3x62 of 1905 , which doesn’t even have a last name, is finally catching the spotlight in the USA. Some

www.ronspomeroutdoors.com

 

[KenLee]

My thoughts on your potentisl choices for rifles:
1. 45-70 lever
2. Remington 7600 pump in 35 Whelen

If you are dead set on a semi-auto,
3. Browning BAR lightweight stalker in 338
win mag

I know of cycling issues with the R1, but have shot my 3 lightweight stalker BARs enoigh to have confidence in them, but I'm not running into a grizzly or polar bear.

 

[Zerk]

2. Remington 7600 pump in 35 Whelen

I

If going with a pump action, should you just go with 12 gauge slugs? Which lighter?

 

[Rambucsabillbul]

Marlin 1895 in 45/70 lever with 500 gr. Loads or a 12 Ga Short pump shotgun with big mag capacity
Avoid anything Auto .......

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Lots of great info but many of the suggestions would potentially get you locked up if passed. Folks should read up on it.

Canada Bans Guns Commonly Used for Hunting & Recreation - Safari Club

Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau recently issued an Order in Council that contains some of the most restrictive and shocking gun control measures ever

safariclub.org

https://firearmrights.ca/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/The-List-G46-final.pdf

As far as the Taylor KO calculator, it is interesting that a 454 Casull has the same KO score as a 338 Win Mag shooting a 225 gr bullet at 2800 fps.

 

[KenLee]

If going with a pump action, should you just go with 12 gauge slugs? Which lighter?

OP seems to want a rifle to take along.
A pump 12 gauge should be fine. In the back of my mind, I'm still haunted by the terrible accuracy of slugs from 50 years ago.
The state didn't allow buckshot for deer on public land back then and we were dirt poor with no rifles in the family other than a couple 22s. I remember thinking I was a long range sniper when I bought my first worn Remington semi-auto 30-06 at 11 years old with $ from cutting grass, washing cars and pruning bushes for everyone in the neighborhood.
Back then you were doing good to hit a pie plate at 50 yards from a smooth bore shotty. That was taking your time to aim, not with a bear charging.