Ideal Bear Defense Long Gun?

[Matt Magolan]

Hey everyone,

We are going to be canoeing the length of the Mackenzie River (1100 Miles from Hay River to Tuktoyaktuk) in the Northwest Territories of Canada this summer (2023) and I thought I had my, Canada Legal, bear defense guns sorted out. This will be for defense against Grizzly and potentially Polar Bear as we reach the Arctic Ocean at the end of the expedition. We were going to take the following:

1 X Stoeger M3000 Semi Auto Freedom Defense 12 Gauge with Pistol Grip shotgun 5 + 1
Ammo: Brenneke 3" Black Magic Magnum Slugs (Stoeger would be 6 + 1 with 3" Mags) TAYLOR KNOCKOUT FOMRULA AT 25 YDS = 76
1X Retay Masai Mara Warden 12 Gauge shotgun 4 + 1
Ammo: Brenneke Special Forces Maximum Barrier Penetrating Magnum 2 3/4" (This would maintain the 4 +1 capacity) TAYLOR KNOCKOUT FOMRULA AT 25 YDS = 84

Unfortunately, Canada's gun laws may change soon, making even some hunting shotguns/rifles illegal (Namely if the firearm can hold, or there are parts to make it hold, more than 5 rounds in the magazine/tube it will be a RESTRICTED firearm in Canada and hence, illegal). So...our Stoeger would be illegal, as would any shotgun for which there were factory or aftermarket magazine extensions available. Which is pretty much most semi-automatic shotguns on the market that are worth carrying (Benelli M2, Beretta 1300, etc.).

I'm considering the following for a replacement for the Stoeger:

Benelli R1 .338 Win Mag with a 24" Barrel
Ammo: 250 grain Swift A-frame Bear Hammer from Pendleton Ammunition (2600 FPS from a 24" Barrel) TAYLOR KNOCKOUT FOMRULA AT 25 YDS = 31

What I really want is for Benelli to make the following:

Benelli R1 in 35 Whelen with an 18 1/2" - 20" Barrel. 5 round magazine + 1 in the chamber. Iron sights and a rail on the receiver for a quick acquisition type optic
Ammo: Hendershots Extreme Custom 35 Whelen 280 Grain Swift A-Frame TAYLOR KNOCKOUT FOMRULA AT 25 YDS = 32

In my opinion, this would be the ultimate woodsman/ Bear Defense rifle.

I am basing my caliber/ammo combination decisions off of the Taylor Knockout Formula, which can be found here:

Taylor KO Calculator | Energy | Momentum | Bullet

It is an interesting formula.

Remember, this is for defense against Grizzly and Polar Bear at close range, so long range terminal ballistics are not really a factor, any shot taken will likely be inside of 50 Yards, hell, likely inside of 25 Yards. What are your guys thoughts?

Matt

 

[49ereric]

Double barrel shotgun or rifle would be the quickest two shots.

 

[Fatcamp]

I won't be happy until I own a .375 of some flavor.

That doesn't help you in any way, but I thought everyone should know.

 

[HighUintas]

What about a 45-70

 

[Nykki]

375 H&H with 300 gr partitions work very well on big bears. 338 wm with 250 gr partitions would be my second choice. 45-70 for up close work. Have used all three along with a 444 marlin on bears along the rivers here during the summer and fall. I normally have the 45-70 on my jetboat and have had to repellent boarders.

 

[ldmay375]

Hey everyone,

We are going to be canoeing the length of the Mackenzie River (1100 Miles from Hay River to Tuktoyaktuk) in the Northwest Territories of Canada this summer (2023) and I thought I had my, Canada Legal, bear defense guns sorted out. This will be for defense against Grizzly and potentially Polar Bear as we reach the Arctic Ocean at the end of the expedition. We were going to take the following:

1 X Stoeger M3000 Semi Auto Freedom Defense 12 Gauge with Pistol Grip shotgun 5 + 1
Ammo: Brenneke 3" Black Magic Magnum Slugs (Stoeger would be 6 + 1 with 3" Mags) TAYLOR KNOCKOUT FOMRULA AT 25 YDS = 76
1X Retay Masai Mara Warden 12 Gauge shotgun 4 + 1
Ammo: Brenneke Special Forces Maximum Barrier Penetrating Magnum 2 3/4" (This would maintain the 4 +1 capacity) TAYLOR KNOCKOUT FOMRULA AT 25 YDS = 84

Unfortunately, Canada's gun laws may change soon, making even some hunting shotguns/rifles illegal (Namely if the firearm can hold, or there are parts to make it hold, more than 5 rounds in the magazine/tube it will be a RESTRICTED firearm in Canada and hence, illegal). So...our Stoeger would be illegal, as would any shotgun for which there were factory or aftermarket magazine extensions available. Which is pretty much most semi-automatic shotguns on the market that are worth carrying (Benelli M2, Beretta 1300, etc.).

I'm considering the following for a replacement for the Stoeger:

Benelli R1 .338 Win Mag with a 24" Barrel
Ammo: 250 grain Swift A-frame Bear Hammer from Pendleton Ammunition (2600 FPS from a 24" Barrel) TAYLOR KNOCKOUT FOMRULA AT 25 YDS = 31

What I really want is for Benelli to make the following:

Benelli R1 in 35 Whelen with an 18 1/2" - 20" Barrel. 5 round magazine + 1 in the chamber. Iron sights and a rail on the receiver for a quick acquisition type optic
Ammo: Hendershots Extreme Custom 35 Whelen 280 Grain Swift A-Frame TAYLOR KNOCKOUT FOMRULA AT 25 YDS = 32

In my opinion, this would be the ultimate woodsman/ Bear Defense rifle.

I am basing my caliber/ammo combination decisions off of the Taylor Knockout Formula, which can be found here:

Taylor KO Calculator | Energy | Momentum | Bullet

It is an interesting formula.

Remember, this is for defense against Grizzly and Polar Bear at close range, so long range terminal ballistics are not really a factor, any shot taken will likely be inside of 50 Yards, hell, likely inside of 25 Yards. What are your guys thoughts?

Matt

Lots of workable combinations that have worked or will work. The 35 Whelen is certainly no whimp of a cartridge, particularly with modern load data. Nor is the 338 Winchester, which is one of my favorite cartridges. Personally, I would use lighter weight monolithic bullets than the weights that you listed. Terminal performance would not be lacking, particularly at < 50 yards. Recoil might be slightly less.

If I personally were making an 1100 mile canoe trip:
I would carry a stainless bolt action control round feed rifle, 20" barrel, with iron sights of my liking, synthetic stock, a low powered variable scope in detachable mounts or red dot type sight.

If my primary concern was big bears at under 50 yards, my caliber choice would begin at .416.

Of my present rifles, I pick my 416 Ruger Alaskan. I would use a premium 325 to 350 grain bullet, near top velocity in a verified trouble free load. At the moment, I would load a 350 gr TSX or TTSX at ~ 2500 fps. I have lots of faith in this rifle and cartridge.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

I’d get a Ruger alaskan or guide gun in either 375 Ruger or 416 Ruger. They come with open sights and are about as stout as guns come. They come with shorter 20” barrels and the Alaskans have that rubberized hogue stock which is nice for bumping around canoes or boats. There was a dealer selling one in 338 in the classifieds here, 338 would be another good option.

A 45/70 lever gun would be cool but more difficult to get up and running again if it gets stuck in the mud or something.

Whatever you choose, I’d pick a heavy for caliber bullet.

 

[hiker270]

A short action stainless bolt action rifle like the Ruger 375 with a 300 grain bullet.

 

[FLATHEAD]

Yep, I'd be carrying my .375 Ruger Alaskan.

 

[Touchdown88]

Henry stainless 45-70. It had a 4 round capacity.

 

[NE Herd Bull]

Exciting adventure for sure.

Well thought out plan. Your shotgun setup sounds like proper medicine.
If gun laws change on you, I would try to stay with a reliable operating slug shotgun that meets the new standards.

In the event that a non slug arm is needed, My personal fall back weapon would be a big bore lever gun.
Short, easy to carry, easy to access, easy to operate in times of need, ability to quickly dispense a lot of well directed firepower at close range, in a variety of shooting positions. From the hip, in heavy cover, out of a canoe, tent etc

I have an all weather lever gun, in 450 marlin at the ready for similar scenarios. I would prefer its ability for quick follow up shots, under duress, over any of my other bolt action African stopping rifles.

Carrying a big bore double rifle does not seem to fit your needs on this application. Unless you are looking for a reason to own one.

 

[Fatcamp]

Exciting adventure for sure.

Well thought out plan. Your shotgun setup sounds like proper medicine.
If gun laws change on you, I would try to stay with a reliable operating slug shotgun that meets the new standards.

In the event that a non slug arm is needed, My personal fall back weapon would be a big bore lever gun.
Short, easy to carry, easy to access, easy to operate in times of need, ability to quickly dispense a lot of well directed firepower at close range, in a variety of shooting positions. From the hip, in heavy cover, out of a canoe, tent etc

I have an all weather lever gun, in 450 marlin at the ready for similar scenarios. I would prefer its ability for quick follow up shots, under duress, over any of my other bolt action African stopping rifles.

Carrying a big bore double rifle does not seem to fit your needs on this application. Unless you are looking for a reason to own one.

I fully support OP in purchasing a double big bore rifle. I think we can all agree that's a reasonable choice.

 

[SBR Sarge]

Sounds like an epic adventure and I am jealous.

To the question, I’m thinking a lever gun in .45-70, 444 Marlin, or some other big bore thumper of a cartridge. I imagine the .45-70 is easier to find ammo for, if that is a concern.

And make sure you can outrun at least one of your companions.

 

[Zerk]

Do you really want a semi auto for personel protection? I'd rather a pump.

 

[Matt Magolan]

THANKS:

Thanks for all of the fantastic responses here guys, I'm going to need to read through more closely and consider a lot of this.

MY CASE FOR SEMI-AUTO:

As for Semi-Auto: I have been carrying a firearm for my day job for over 15 years and we carry semi-automatic pistols (Glocks, HK and now Sig) and semi-automatic rifles (AR's). There simply is no faster operating system in a firearm (Unless you are Jerry Miculek) available to an average citizen, not to mention legal in Canada.

I don't want to retrain myself to learn a new biomechanical process (Learning a bolt gun or even a lever), I do not have the time to develop the muscle memory to use a bolt gun or a lever gun as proficiently as firing a semi-auto.

And quite frankly, I've fired bolt guns, even attempting rapid cycling. My first question was why do people who are right handed use a bolt that rests on the right side of the receiver? In a self-defense situation from ANY charging wildlife, I would want a "Left-handed action."

Why? someone here on this thread mentioned being able to reload, "Without removing my cheek weld." What about your Control hand? The hand that works the all important component, the trigger, you know, one of the fundamentals of shooting (Trigger control). Do you have to remove it from the firing position to work the bolt, then re-acquire your grip? Or do you do some weird contorted left hand over the top of the receiver to work the bolt?

It seems to me that a left handed bolt gun is the only option, biomechanically, when it comes to a bolt gun for self defense against wildlife, so your control hand stays where it should when working the action. However it would still require a great deal of training and practice to acquire the necessary muscle memory to be proficient with a bolt gun. I suspect the cheek comb would be on the wrong side for a right handed shooter using a left handed bolt gun, so that is likely out too...

I stand by the assertion that bolt guns are NOT designed as rapid fire weapons. With a semi-automatic you pull the trigger, re-acquire target while resetting the trigger, then pull the trigger again. No change in hand position, you just need to drive the gun and manage recoil.

With a Benelli R1 .338 Win Mag, that can happen 4 times (3+1), likely in fewer than 3 seconds. A charging Grizzly Bear travels at 40 feet per second, that's 120 feet, 40 yards, think about that when you talk about using a bolt gun for bear defense.

LEVER AND PUMP:

I have used pump guns for Bear defense in the Arctic before and they are good enough, but now my 9 year old twins will be with us on this expedition, I want the fastest shooting system I can get.

My dad had an old 30-30 lever gun years ago and I tried to do some cowboy "stuff" (And by cowboy stuff, I don't mean actual bonafide cowboy shooting, I mean a teenager being stupid from watching western movies) with the rifle. It never seemed a natural motion to reload that old gun.

I've cycled a few of the modern lever rifles that would be good in the modern 45-70 cartridges, but, again, I have, literally, 10's, if not 100's, of thousands of reps with semi-auto rifles. I just can't turn my back on that.

CONVENTIONAL WISDOM:

Bolt guns, Levers, and pumps are more reliable than semi-autos is the conventional wisdom. I do not believe that to be true of modern rifles.

I've scoured the interwebs for reliability reviews of the R1 and while many people talk about getting one with mediocre accuracy at longer ranges (I just need it to shoot straight inside of 50 yards), some talk about the finish not being as durable as it should be (Rust) and some talk about the aesthetics of the rifle (Butt ugly to some eyes, although the Italians did give us Ferrari right?), I have had a hard time finding anyone talking about problems of reliability.

Benelli R1 rifle???

Any thoughts on this gun? Personally would never buy one just wondering any one else opinion I guess

rokslide.com

Thanks again for all the responses, I'll respond to some of the other stuff here when I have the time.

 

[Matt Magolan]

On a humorous note: When I was buying a shotgun (A Winchester 1300 Marine Defender Pump), for a previous Arctic Expedition (1996) the old timer in the gun shop, picture a dude in his 70's with a Marlboro in his lip told me this:

Old man running the gun shop said, "You don't need a 12 Gauge, you need a .22."

I quizzically looked at him and said, "I'll bite."

Old guy, "When you see the bear coming, you turn and shoot your partner in the knee, and then just walk away!"

The guy then nearly dies coughing after his smoky lungs can't handle his laughter at his own joke. Funny old guy, different times.

 

[J Batt]

On most bolt actions the bolt will hit your hand if you cycle without moving your trigger hand.
I had a buddy who's a lefty, He tried to cycle my right-handed gun that way and ripped his hand wide open.
You would need a pistol grip on a bolt gun to run it that way.

 

[Wrench]

I'd rock the pump gun. No way would I want my kids fumbling with a lever gun under stress.....and if the gun fails to fire, the pump is the easiest to clear.

 

[justinspicher]

What about a 45-70

This is my thought, with 425gr Hornady Leverlution ammo.

 

[JFK]

Canada is making firearms that hold 5+1 illegal? What a shit show this world is becoming.