Hunting - Powder Recommendation

[ResearchinStuff]

hornady is pretty adament that they use the pressure values exactly as reported from their pressure trace, which is probably the most accurate way to determine what the pressure actually is. the typical pressure indicators that handloaders are using are extremely crude.

 

[49ereric]

Trying to achieve a very specific MV.

I've cross checked with a few other sources of load data and much more experienced reloaders and Hornady seems to be pretty conservative with their max.

As long as you go incremental over max modern publish loads and stop when stiffer bolt lift and back off a bit you should be fine.
source data from older reloading manuals should be a higher max load.
always a risk of course.

 

[Koda_]

What is the rationale for going above (even slightly) a published load from a reputable manufacturer? Is it more accurate, is it meeting a velocity goal you want to achieve?

Published load data is not always absolute, they often use test barrels and chambers or publish conservative max values. It would be rare a handloader is using every single exact component in published load data. Obviously there is good reason to respect max values and work up to them vs start there, but sometimes handloaders get no signs of pressure at published max and can safely go higher with their actual components to gain more velocity.

hornady is pretty adament that they use the pressure values exactly as reported from their pressure trace, which is probably the most accurate way to determine what the pressure actually is. the typical pressure indicators that handloaders are using are extremely crude.

Exactly, there is no way for handloaders to accurately measure actual pressure. There is a little bit of "mad scientist" involved with handloading.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

i mean, you can buy a pressure trace for yourself if you were that interested. one of the self proclaimed reloading gurus on youtube has one.

 

[ColeyG]

As long as you go incremental over max modern publish loads and stop when stiffer bolt lift and back off a bit you should be fine.
source data from older reloading manuals should be a higher max load.
always a risk of course.

This is what I did. Worked up in .5 grain increments from below Hornady's max to what I settled on when I hit my desired MV. Zero signs of pressure problems. Bolt lift and spent primers are identical to the factory rounds I was trying to match.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Trying to achieve a very specific MV.

I've cross checked with a few other sources of load data and much more experienced reloaders and Hornady seems to be pretty conservative with their max.

Fair enough. Which sources of load data that were cross checked show a higher max charge than you worked up to? That would be the data I would be saying I used in working up as opposed to pushing past what Hornady recommends, regardless of what someone says.

Experience as a reloader does not imply the practice of going beyond published loads is any more prudent than for a guy loading his first cartridge.

Working up to stiff bolt and backing off is like doing surgery with a chainsaw. Yeah, like a mad scientist. Incredibly crude method and poor practice. Stiff bolt lift is over pressure and backing off until it goes away is very easily still over max, but you will never know, will you? If folks need "a very specific mv" get a bigger cartridge case to start with.

 

[Koda_]

Working up to stiff bolt and backing off is like doing surgery with a chainsaw. Yeah, like a mad scientist. Incredibly crude method and poor practice. Stiff bolt lift is over pressure and backing off until it goes away is very easily still over max, but you will never know, will you? If folks need "a very specific mv" get a bigger cartridge case to start with.

What do you do if you dont have any published load data to work with? What do you do if you hit pressure before published max data?

 

[49ereric]

Working up to stiff bolt and backing off is like doing surgery with a chainsaw. Yeah, like a mad scientist. Incredibly crude method and poor practice. Stiff bolt lift is over pressure and backing off until it goes away is very easily still over max, but you will never know, will you?

rifle chambers vary so much that what is max for one is not for another and the only way to find out what max is for your rifle is to slowly work up a load that books say is max In the test rifle.
rifles are proofed way beyond tighter bolt lift.
seat the bullets out farther in a long throat chamber and you can go above max in some chambers.
I wouldn’t do this with quicker burning powders though.

 

[blacktailcentral]

Howdy,
I’m new to the reloading world and looking for some powder brand and option recommendations. I have a Seekins 300 win mag, Barnes TTSX bullets and some Hornady ELD-X, some new Nosler and Hornady brass and a mix of once fired, mag primers - enough for about 500rds. I’ve read a little that I need to watch out for temperature as some brands do better than others when temps fluctuate…
I hunt Elk, and Muley out west and Whitetail in my home state of MN.

And of course the task of trying to find any in stock somewhere.

Thanks!
Jason


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

H1000, or N560 would be good options to get you started

 

[Koda_]

rifle chambers vary so much that what is max for one is not for another and the only way to find out what max is for your rifle is to slowly work up a load that books say is max In the test rifle.

yup, I also like to know where my max pressure is in case the powder is temperature sensitive. If I just stopped at a written maximum charge weight, I wouldnt know if Im right on the edge. When Im up near the top the resolution in charge weights gets way smaller, just a few rounds in .2gn increments, I like to know im at least .5gn below max in my rifle.

 

[ColeyG]

Which sources of load data that were cross checked show a higher max charge than you worked up to?

If folks need "a very specific mv" get a bigger cartridge case to start with.

I don't recall what the sources were. One online source and a friends reloading manual. As others have pointed out, pressure is the issue, not necessarily the powder charge going into the round and yes I understand that the latter drives the former. But, there are many other specific factors that affect pressure in each individual scenario.

Pardon my ignorance, but I don't understand the "bigger cartridge case" recommendation. Do you mean a higher volume (in terms of powder capacity) case? Or a lower volume (more brass, less powder capacity) case?

 

[35WhelenAI]

What do you do if you dont have any published load data to work with? What do you do if you hit pressure before published max data?

Appreciate the good discussions. If pressure is hit before max data, it's reloading 101 to back off. I see where you're going with that. I believe you are saying if you must back off and aren't at max published load, why not develop each load to that point and back off regardless of published data.

In my experience and in over a century of loading being a hobby for many generations, loading guidelines are there for a reason. As has been said, each rifle is a rule unto itself, some may/will show no signs at well over max published loads and well over industry pressure, some rifles will show it before max published loads. The point being don't deliberately go over published data chasing the last fps or to hit a very specific mv because of the above. I think it's smart money to come up with a load that shoots well, doesn't push max pressure limits and still kills truckloads of game.

I have worked up loads for bullets and powders in my 35 Whelen Ackley Improved that don't have published data. I have used case head expansion measurements in conjunction with primer appearance, bolt lift, primer pocket tightness and velocity from a chronograph to establish loads that are safe within accepted case head expansion parameters and more traditional signs.

Pardon my ignorance, but I don't understand the "bigger cartridge case" recommendation. Do you mean a higher volume (in terms of powder capacity) case? Or a lower volume (more brass, less powder capacity) case?

Apologies for not being clear. A larger volume case as in going from a 308 to a 30-06 or from an '06 to a 300 Winchester magnum. Larger cases burn higher charge weights and use slower powders to provide a longer push at the same pressure on the bullet to achieve higher velocity without going over industry peak pressure.

 

[Koda_]

Appreciate the good discussions. If pressure is hit before max data, it's reloading 101 to back off. I see where you're going with that. I believe you are saying if you must back off and aren't at max published load, why not develop each load to that point and back off regardless of published data.

In my experience and in over a century of loading being a hobby for many generations, loading guidelines are there for a reason. As has been said, each rifle is a rule unto itself, some may/will show no signs at well over max published loads and well over industry pressure, some rifles will show it before max published loads. The point being don't deliberately go over published data chasing the last fps or to hit a very specific mv because of the above. I think it's smart money to come up with a load that shoots well, doesn't push max pressure limits and still kills truckloads of game.

I think we approach the same thing just from different directions, the only difference is whats written in a book. Ive seen two different max values from different load data.... to me, its all a reference. My guess is you see it as a hard stop.
To clarify I'm not saying intentionally always push for max pressure or deliberately go over published data chasing velocity, An accuracy node is more important to me. I just let the rifle let me know, so to speak.

 

[35WhelenAI]

I think we approach the same thing just from different directions, the only difference is whats written in a book. Ive seen two different max values from different load data.... to me, its all a reference. My guess is you see it as a hard stop.
To clarify I'm not saying intentionally always push for max pressure or deliberately go over published data chasing velocity, An accuracy node is more important to me. I just let the rifle let me know, so to speak.

I'm not going to be dishonest and say I haven't massaged and tweaked within different max charge weights that come from different sources.

However, the rifles I have done that in are an Ackley Improved chamber and a 300 Winchester magnum that has an extremely long throat and I shortened the bolt stop to handle cartridges loaded to full Magnum length instead of standard length. Both those have different dynamics than standard factory rounds given the effective larger case volume.

I will be honest and say if velocity reaches that of a load manual or what a number of load manuals used for cross reference show as being fairly consistent, the pressure value is very close to what the company doing the testing achieved in a pressure barrel.

Bottom line and it's a hard line, velocity equals pressure.

When a load is at max load from a manual with a similar barrel length and similar components, and they are below published velocity with no pressure signs I'd say there's some room for grace.

What bothers me is when I see quoting velocity well above a reputable load manual(s) in a 4-in shorter barrel or something to that effect. And the person saying there are no pressure signs.

Based on variability of each individual rifle, that may be absolutely true (no pressure signs). However, I've got heavy coin betting it is over pressure and I've got no place for that nor would I recommend or share on a public forum. Unless that is backed up with pressure tested values in their gun, it's ballistic bombast.

Manufacturers use a minimum chamber spec barrel. The fit of the cartridge in the chamber is as precise as it will get. That means, all else equal, the pressure in a commercially cut chamber in a rifle that has to chamber every single round from any commercial ammo manufacturer, will most likely be below maximum industry standard. But how much lower is it, and is it worth bragging rights to chase that extra few fps? Accuracy nodes mean nothing if it's an overpressure load. It's not good practice.

It may feel good and sound good to say a rifle gets better velocity than book with no pressure signs, but it's a fools statement if a person thinks they aren't overpressure.

 

[wind gypsy]

H4831 is available pretty frequently. H1000 has been in stock lots of places online for a while now. Both will work for the OP.

Or since you're in MN, if you want to pay $600 for an 8#er of RL26 you can swing by my place
(edit: horry sheet, just looked and RL26 8#ers are going for over $1k on gunbroker now..)