How to deal with game wardens?

[Fireflyfishing]

I have an honest and general question of Probable Cause and 4th amendment re: Hunting

I have a decent understanding of the application of PC and 4th amendment in my position. Which are firearms, narcotics, etc.

Arms reach, access to glove boxes and "anywhere you could hide or secret same".

Is part of the "issue" or question.....could you fit a grouse in a glove box? Yea An extra trout? Sure.

I am not at all familiar with the threshold of how reasonable-ness plays out or looks like in game violations.

What articulable facts need to be stacked in a game violation to reach PC? Be interesting to hear.

Exiting a known hunting area, wearing orange, and being present during date/time of lawful hunting I wouldn't think reaches PC.....

Most PC is created at the typewriter. I would guess a Warden with several years of typing is rather good at it.


Admitting you were hunting when passing a Warden as you drove out of a hunting area I don't think would be found Reasonable for PC either. Not even sure Reasonable Suspicion.

I asked Google this:
“define probable cause for game wardens in montana”

AI gave me this:

In Montana, probable cause for game wardens means having
actual, objective reasons (not just suspicion), based on facts and circumstances, to believe a fish and game law has been violated, allowing warrantless searches of vehicles, boats, and open areas, but requiring warrants for dwellings, with the standard being a reasonable belief in criminal activity for stops, not just general hunches. It's more than a hunch; it's a legal standard requiring specific, articulable facts that would lead an experienced officer to suspect wrongdoing, enabling searches for unlawfully taken game or illegal devices.
Key Elements of Probable Cause for Wardens

• Not Just Suspicion: It can't be a mere guess, policy, or hunch; it must be based on actual, credible information or observations.
• Objective Data: Wardens need objective facts that suggest a violation, like seeing someone with an illegal number of fish, hearing a gunshot in a restricted area, or finding prohibited bait.
• Totality of Circumstances: Courts look at all the facts together to decide if probable cause exists for a specific stop or search.
• Warrantless Searches Allowed (Specific Areas): For vehicles, boats, tents (not residences), and open fields, wardens can search without a warrant if they have probable cause.
• Warrants Needed for Dwellings: A search warrant is required to search a residence or dwelling.
• Peace Officer Powers: Wardens have peace officer status for fish and game enforcement, allowing searches, seizures, and arrests when probable cause is established.

Examples of Probable Cause (Inferred)

• A warden sees hunters near a "No Hunting" sign with fresh game and no licenses.
• A boat operator is fishing with illegal gear (like a gill net).
• A vehicle smells strongly of freshly killed game, but the occupants have no tags or licenses.

Legal Basis

• Montana Code Annotated (MCA) § 87-1-506 grants wardens broad search and seizure powers with probable cause.
• Montana's Constitution (Art. II, Sec. 11) protects against unreasonable searches, but this is balanced with specific statutes for wildlife enforcement.

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

Examples of Probable Cause (Inferred)

• A warden sees hunters near a "No Hunting" sign with fresh game and no licenses.
• A boat operator is fishing with illegal gear (like a gill net).
• A vehicle smells strongly of freshly killed game, but the occupants have no tags or licenses.

I would pretty strongly disagree with #3...unless a K9 is present and then...the handler would have to justify that the K9 is trained SPECIFICALLY to smell and detect game and present with an alert very specific to the presence of game (which dog isn't??)

But again...NOT a lawyer. Or Warden.

 

[Bubblehide]

I typed this phrase into google:
“open fields doctrine and administrative searches with game wardens”

Google AI spit out this:

Great, like I said previously, different states apply the open fields doctrine differently, and what you pulled up doesn't really cover an administrative search in which those states support them (a few states do not support them, but that does not negate federal wildlife officers). You might have to put in a little more effort, or search a state that supports administrative searches.

 

[Bubblehide]

I asked Google this:
“define probable cause for game wardens in montana”

AI gave me this:

Montana I believe is a state that does not support administration searches. However, federal wildlife officers are NOT restricted by the state, and their interpretations. As such, you may want to search a state like California, or another that supports administrative searches.

 

[2531usmc]

I would guess just about 100% of game wardens come into the job as avid outdoorsman and great all around people. But over the course of their career experience dealing with people that have no regard for wildlife, the law, or other people they become wary and defensive. Can’t say that I blame them.

If we had a thread consisting of game wardens telling us about their worst days, we would probably have some sense why some act the way they do.

 

[OregonSteeler]

I have had nothing but great interactions.

To those who have had a negative interaction - everyone has a supervisor - file a complaint. I suspect that many/most GWs will be wearing body cameras soon which could go a long way towards proving/disproving negative interactions. NY "GW"s will likely have them within 2 years.

I would like to know where some of y'all got your online law degrees - I'd ask for a refund if I were you.

In Oregon, fish & wildlife officers are all sworn OSP State troopers who specialize in enforcing fishing and hunting laws. The LE I had encountered was actively recording our conversation until we went off topic and started discussing hunting pressure in the area and the new 2026 deer units. He actually said "I'm shutting the camera off because we're no longer discussing any relevant infractions".

 

[Bubblehide]

I would guess just about 100% of game wardens come into the job as avid outdoorsman and great all around people. But over the course of their career experience dealing with people that have no regard for wildlife, the law, or other people they become wary and defensive. Can’t say that I blame them.

If we had a thread consisting of game wardens telling us about their worst days, we would probably have some sense why some act the way they do.

I get what you're saying, but as I stated earlier, in all my decades of hunting, fishing, hiking, backpacking, scouting... I have only run into 1 Richard of a Warden (a few times, his approach never changed), in the 80's. Every other encounter has been pleasant. From my perspective, it boild down to your reaction and behavior with the warden, with rare exceptions. But it doesn't matter what field of employment you look at, there will always be a few bad apples.

 

[tony]

Here's a question for members from W. VA. since it was mentioned:

If a husband and wife from W VA get a divorce, are they still considered brother and sister?



Eddie

In Virginia siblings can marry parents. Serious as hell!
There are two sisters in my prison, one married her dad after all 3 killed the future wife’s boyfriend.
Read the whole article, it’s near the bottom

https://www.wvnstv.com/news/three-charged-after-remains-of-minnesota-man-found-in-mcdowell-county/

 

[dr.mooseknuckles]

I've always had good interactions with the SC game wardens. Had a private land owner call one on me when I was hunting NF land along the private boundary on the last day of duck season. Private land owner rolled up on the creek 5 minutes before legal and started yelling at me that I was trespassing. Invited them to come and look at OnX with me but they wouldn't. I never fired a shot and walked out.

GW was waiting by my truck. I had called in a baiting violation that I had found earlier in the season. He said "oh it's you!" I said yep, I wasn't trespassing and showed him on the map where I was sitting. He told me to head on out and I was good to go.

Same private landowner goofed a gobbling tom for me in the same general area. He was turkey hunting with hunter's orange on.... I had to let him know that turkeys could see orange. He had no clue.

 

[fwafwow]

I would be especially skeptical of relying on AI with anything related to the law or legal issues. Maybe refine the searches to ask for law journal articles on the topic. Here's one that I found (titled "Fishing for Evidence: The Expansive Warrantless Search Powers of Fish and Game Wardens") which is dated. I am not commenting on the contents.

 

[*zap*]

Kansas kdwp law enforcement is %95 toxic.

 

[CorbLand]

I would guess just about 100% of game wardens come into the job as avid outdoorsman and great all around people. But over the course of their career experience dealing with people that have no regard for wildlife, the law, or other people they become wary and defensive. Can’t say that I blame them.

If we had a thread consisting of game wardens telling us about their worst days, we would probably have some sense why some act the way they do.

I have a couple buddies that are cops. Each of them have said that one of the top five hardest part of their jobs is that you deal with the worst of society on a daily basis and you become jaded. Good cops have to put effort into maintaining a mentality that the people you’re dealing with are innocent. Some cops get a mentality that everyone is guilty of something and you just have to find it. Generally, the ones with the later mentality are the ones that people don’t like and while you shouldn’t/cant judge all cops because of a bad one…the perception is definitely dictated by the worst.

 

[Bubblehide]

I would be especially skeptical of relying on AI with anything related to the law or legal issues. Maybe refine the searches to ask for law journal articles on the topic. Here's one that I found (titled "Fishing for Evidence: The Expansive Warrantless Search Powers of Fish and Game Wardens") which is dated. I am not commenting on the contents.

The Fishing for Evidence is good albit brief. I read it long ago. Anyone doubting the extent of search powers of wildlife officers should take a look at it.

 

[JVS]

Talk to them like anyone else. They put their pants on one leg at a time like the rest of us.

I had one negative encounter when I was in my early twenties.
I purchased my own farm at a pretty young age. I did so under an LLC. Game warden was waiting for me at my truck after a morning hunt. Started in with some basic questions about my morning hunt. Wanted to know whose ground I was hunting. When I told him it was my place he acted as though he didn’t believe me. He was kind of a prick about it. The plat showed the LLC name. He said somthing to the fact like is it your dads place. I popped off pretty bluntly about what did he not understand about me say it was my farm and that it’s listed under an LLC that I own. There was a lack of respect there that I didn’t care for.

 

[Fireflyfishing]

I would be especially skeptical of relying on AI with anything related to the law or legal issues. Maybe refine the searches to ask for law journal articles on the topic. Here's one that I found (titled "Fishing for Evidence: The Expansive Warrantless Search Powers of Fish and Game Wardens") which is dated. I am not commenting on the contents.

No argument. Just providing easily searchable information. It’s a good starting place to look. Refining the search is certainly needed to drive toward black and white (as much as you can get anyway).

At the end of the day, I’m not going to dig too hard as I follow the laws and regs. I’ll add my name to list here of no issues with wardens when encountered fishing or hunting.

 

[fwafwow]

The Fishing for Evidence is good albit brief. I read it long ago. Anyone doubting the extent of search powers of wildlife officers should take a look at it.

Here is a more recent one - "CONSTITUTIONAL LAW—FOURTH AMENDMENT SEARCH AND SEIZURE—WE’VE GOT OURSELVES IN A PICKLE: THE SUPREME COURT OF ARKANSAS’S RECENT EXPANSION OF FOURTH AMENDMENT RIGHTS MAY HAVE UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES. Pickle v. State, 2015 Ark. 286, 466 S.W.3d 410" I almost didn't provide the link due to the typo in the title on the first page, but that wasn't in the article itself.

 

[The Ri Guy]

Multiple Wardens/LEO in the family -- treat them like people and act normal. They aren't going to waste their time asking you leading questions if they don't already have a semi-reasonable suspicion of something being wrong, in my experience/observation.

That being said, I've seen more Warden's at family gatherings than out in the woods in WA in the last 20 years.

 

[voltage]

Multiple Wardens/LEO in the family -- treat them like people and act normal. They aren't going to waste their time asking you leading questions if they don't already have a semi-reasonable suspicion of something being wrong, in my experience/observation.

That being said, I've seen more Warden's at family gatherings than out in the woods in WA in the last 20 years.

Did you read my Dorito story? They were Nacho Cheese and he still opened the bag. I would understand if it was Cool Ranch. I did nothing wrong. He also acted offended when I asked him if he wanted any since the bag was half full.

 

[The Ri Guy]

Did you read my Dorito story? They were Nacho Cheese and he still opened the bag. I would understand if it was Cool Ranch. I did nothing wrong. He also acted offended when I asked him if he wanted any since the bag was half full.

Perhaps he suspected the bag was one of the good ones with lots of extra seasoning?

 

[AntelopeEater]

So far all my experiences with wardens have been friendly and positive, in fact, I try to engage them in conversation and get advice from them since they probably know more about hunting in the area than I do, especially when I'm in a new to me area.