How much can i expect handloading to change the accuracy with a given bullet? And what are the performance of the average factory rifle with a variety

[ssimo]

Not trying to argue with you at all, but as inunderstand it and it makes sense to me....

If I shoot 3 round groups and wait 5 minutes between shots for a cold bore, and one group is a cloverleaf, the second has 2 tight and 1 outside, the next one has 3 not so tight, and the next one is 3 close to an inch. Then none of those groups is telling me the whole story about how my rifle will unpredictably shoot. If every 3 shot group doesn't look the same, then those groups don't mean anything.

So if I shoot 10 rounds, all with a cold ish bore into 1 group that shows me the worst case scenario for my rifles ability.

I was shooting 3 shot groups and none of them look consistently the same. So it was recommended to shoot larger groups. Minimum if 10 rounds to get a better idea of how the gun actually shoots.

One of my buddies also doesn't agree with 10 round groups and recommends shooting 3 round groups and overlaying the targets, which accomplishes the same thing as a 10 round group....I guess. Again, not trying to argue, just how I understand it. This is the first rifle I have ever reloaded for, so I'm still learning.

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When you talk qith someone about the accuracy potential of a rifle you are talking about 3 or 5 shots groups. If you refer to 10 shots group or overlap 3 3 shots group expect the accuracy (on paper of course) of you rifle to be lower and lower also the expectations. I don't see any practical advantage of using so many shots to determine the accuracy but do as you wish my friend. Just don't get stuck chasing group size, be practical!

Another thing: if you get so much inconsistency between groups, something is off. With my 0.5 MOA rifle for example i get 0.2-0.6 MOA groups, one after the other, all day. All groups look very similar to each other

 

[TaperPin]

The gun i am talking about shoots sub MOA with other loads, it's just that that other load doesn't shoot a very aerodynamic projectile so i want to make my rifle like a bullet that it doesn't like in factory loads. But maybe i am asking too much

Oh gosh, I should have been a little more careful reading the post.

Thats a tough one. If it’s an extra heavy bullet it could be the barrel twist not stabilizing it properly - that wouldn‘t be fixed handloading.

Be sure and let us know what you find out.

 

[Archer86]

If I shoot 3 round groups and wait 5 minutes between shots for a cold bore, and one group is a cloverleaf, the second has 2 tight and 1 outside, the next one has 3 not so tight, and the next one is 3 close to an inch. Then none of those groups is telling me the whole story about how my rifle will unpredictably shoot. If every 3 shot group doesn't look the same, then those groups don't mean anything.

I look at this the opposite. Its actually telling you alot. If you can't repeat 3 to 5 shot groups then there is something wrong with the rifle, the scope, the load, or the nut behind the trigger something is causing a issue now its time to figure that out before you slinging 10 shot groups and expect a better outcome.

I had a accuracy issue with a 7 rem mag at one point. it was shooting 168 berger great switched to 162 eldx and the opened way up it was early in my reloading days and I didn't notice the seating die was slightly pressing on the polymer tip and distorting it. Switched seating steam and groups tightened up fairly quick

 

[grfox92]

I look at this the opposite. Its actually telling you alot. If you can't repeat 3 to 5 shot groups then there is something wrong with the rifle, the scope, the load, or the nut behind the trigger something is causing a issue now its time to figure that out before you slinging 10 shot groups and expect a better outcome.

I had a accuracy issue with a 7 rem mag at one point. it was shooting 168 berger great switched to 162 eldx and the opened way up it was early in my reloading days and I didn't notice the seating die was slightly pressing on the polymer tip and distorting it. Switched seating steam and groups tightened up fairly quick

Good to hear other perspectives. For the record I wasn't expecting groups to get better, just seeing how wide the group would be overall. My 3 shot groups have been very erratic so I'm trying different things.

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[ssimo]

Good to hear other perspectives. For the record I wasn't expecting groups to get better, just seeing how wide the group would be overall. My 3 shot groups have been very erratic so I'm trying different things.

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Maybe if 3 shots groups are erratic you are not getting behind the rifle the same way everytime

 

[grfox92]

Maybe if 3 shots groups are erratic you are not getting behind the rifle the same way everytime

Maybe. But I'm pretty confident it's not me. I'm shooting prone off a bipod with a rear bag or seated at a bench with bags, pretty repeatable.

But just to rule me out a friend of mine who is a good re loader and shooter is taking the gun for a few days to shoot it and try different loads he already has worked up for some of his .308.

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[cnelk]

I’m in the 3 shot group

Here’s my load development for my Winchester M70 .270 (pre ‘64)

In my experience - handloads outperform factory loads

 

[theddguide]

If you use ammo boxes of the same batch this should not be an issue or maybe you mean that the velocity varies from round to round?

I've seen over 100fps from shot to shot in a box of that stuff while another box was on avg 100fps slower than the previous box. Yes, different lots, but either way it's unacceptable to me and that's where handloading comes into play.

 

[roadrunner]

For a hunting rifle, the only shot that matters to be sub-moa is the first shot, cold barrel.

 

[Formidilosus]

For a hunting rifle, the only shot that matters to be sub-moa is the first shot, cold barrel.

Cool- which group is 5 cold barrel shots, and which is 5 hot barrel shots?

 

[Formidilosus]

For all the “3 shots is for hunting”, or “cold bore shots are different” people; can you please post pictures of 5-10 separate targets/days of nothing your cold bore/1st shots on it, and then a target with a 5-10 shot group showing how different your cold bore is from your warm bore shots?

 

[grfox92]

For all the “3 shots is for hunting”, or “cold bore shots are different” people; can you please post pictures of 5-10 separate targets/days of nothing your cold bore/1st shots on it, and then a target with a 5-10 shot group showing how different your cold bore is from your warm bore shots?

I've been waiting for you to show up lol.

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[cnelk]

Why isn’t this thread in the Reloading forum?

 

[Maverick1]

Which would result in a more accurate and precise shooter / weapon combination?
1. Spending 10 hours at the range shooting factory loads?
2. Spending 5 hours handloading, and 5 hours at the range shooting?

 

[roadrunner]

Cool- which group is 5 cold barrel shots, and which is 5 hot barrel shots?

View attachment 585154

For all the “3 shots is for hunting”, or “cold bore shots are different” people; can you please post pictures of 5-10 separate targets/days of nothing your cold bore/1st shots on it, and then a target with a 5-10 shot group showing how different your cold bore is from your warm bore shots?

If you have to ask, you didn't understand.

I don't even know who you are anyway so...

 

[Mojave]

Ok, Ciao, I used to live in Sicily, never hunted in Italy.

Question 1. Maybe.

Several things contribute to accuracy.
1. Condition and quality of the barrel
2. Harmonic function of the barrel and how that relates to the rifle action and stock. It is not very tight, and the barrel doesn't have the ability to flex the stock and or receiver can contribute negativly to accuracy.
3. Scope mount, and how well it controls the optic but does not impinge on the optic.
4. The optic itself and how well it is contained by the scope mount, and how tough it is in recoil.
5 The bullet and how it relates (shape, density, ogive, speed and bearing surface to the barrel).

So yes to answer your question, reloading gives you more control over my point 1 and 5. Saying that you must control everything else to increase accuracy.

But, your preferred bullet may or may not match well to your barrel.

To answer question 2. Yes you are correct. The higher quality the barrel and the better the tolerances are on the ammunition the higher odds that the ammunition will be accurate.

If you have an accuracy issue, you should always do 3 things.

1. tighten all bolts on the rifle to factory-recommended specs using a torque wrench.
2. verify your scope is working, swap it for another one and try that.
2. clean your barrel to zero, removing all copper and carbon (powder) fouling.

Then
1. Fire 10 rounds to foul the bore, do not clean it after this.
2. Try like you said 10 varieties of ammunition. Try to match the bullets to your desired characteristics. Choosing a common caliber like 308, 30-06, 6.5x55, 6.5 Creedmoor, 270, 300 Winchester, 7mm Remington Magnum , 7x64, or 8x57 will help. Common cartridges generally have more ammunition development than esoteric loadings. The 7mm Blaser is a perfect example of a cartridge that has one load.
3. Consider bedding an issue if you can't come up with an ammunition solution. For something that has a bedding block like a Blaser R8, Anschutz 1782, Sauer 404, Sauer 202 and other rifles you should not mess with the bedding block. For standard rifles Tikka T3, Winchester m70, remington 700, Sako 75, 85, AV, you need to bed the action to the stock. With somekind of compound like DevCon, or some other epoxy bed.
4. Shorter barrels always shoot better than long barrels. Consider having a very long barrel cut down to 22 inches for magnums or 18-20 inches for non-magnums. This is due the stiffness in the shorter barrels of the same dimensions. Don't believe me, try breaking a 8 inch pencil in half, and then try to break a 3 inch pencil in half.

 

[Formidilosus]

If you have to ask, you didn't understand.

I don't even know who you are anyway so...

You stated a position, I am asking for any evidence that you have or can show, that supports that position.

What does “For a hunting rifle, the only shot that matters to be sub-moa is the first shot, cold barrel” mean? How do you determine that your first is always sub-MOA?

 

[roadrunner]

You stated a position, I am asking for any evidence that you have or can show, that supports that position.

What does “For a hunting rifle, the only shot that matters to be sub-moa is the first shot, cold barrel” mean? How do you determine that your first is always sub-MOA?

Evidence?

The position to the "bullseye" your first shot is.

Anything else is just feel good measures...

 

[Formidilosus]

Evidence?

The position to the "bullseye" your first shot is.

Anything else is just feel good measures...

Ok. Can you show a target, or multiple targets over multiple days with cold bore only shots on it to demonstrate that your “cold bore shots” are consistently in a sub MOA target, and that your cold bore shots are consistently in the same location, and/or that the mean point of impact is consistently in a different location than your warm bore shots?

 

[Archer86]

Cool- which group is 5 cold barrel shots, and which is 5 hot barrel shots?

View attachment 585154

Top target is first group first 3 shots are good then as it heated up it started throwing shots to the left the lower target was the next 5 of your continuous string and still shooting to the left.

I am sure you will say its the opposite but oh well...pencil barrel hunting rifle will through shots everytime how much depends on the rifle 10 round groups don't mean anything on a hunting rifle. Heavey barrel target rifles sure.