How much can i expect handloading to change the accuracy with a given bullet? And what are the performance of the average factory rifle with a variety

[Formidilosus]

Top target is first group first 3 shots are good then as it heated up it started throwing shots to the left the lower target was the next 5 of your continuous string and still shooting to the left.

Incorrect. One target has 5x cold bore shots only. One has 5 hot shots.

I am sure you will say its the opposite but oh well...pencil barrel hunting rifle will through shots everytime how much depends on the rifle

That is not correct and it’s demonstrable on demand.

10 round groups don't mean anything on a hunting rifle

3 random data points has no statistical validity, tells you nothing about where any one shot will land, nor what size target the rifle can mechanically hit with high probability, and tells you nothing about how a load shoots other than “it sucks”.


So, here another. Which target is 5x cold bore shot, and which is 5x hot barrel shots?

 

[roadrunner]

Ok. Can you show a target, or multiple targets over multiple days with cold bore only shots on it to demonstrate that your “cold bore shots” are consistently in a sub MOA target, and that your cold bore shots are consistently in the same location, and/or that the mean point of impact is consistently in a different location than your warm bore

Do you really understand what I said?

 

[Formidilosus]

Do you really understand what I said?

Apparently not. Can you please clarify what you meant?

 

[roadrunner]

Apparently not. Can you please clarify what you meant?

In a hunting rifle, the only shot that matters is the first one. If you're trying to place the shot right behind the ear at 300 yds, that first shot is the only one that needs to be sub-moa...

 

[cnelk]

Who cares

Well, somebody cared. It’s now in the Reloading forum

 

[Formidilosus]

In a hunting rifle, the only shot that matters is the first one. If you're trying to place the shot right behind the ear at 300 yds, that first shot is the only one that needs to be sub-moa...

Ok. So how are you determining that your first shot is always/consistently sub- moa (sub, sub MOA?) from your aimpoint?

 

[Archer86]

3 random data points has no statistical validity, tells you nothing about where any one shot will land, nor what size target the rifle can mechanically hit with high probability, and tells you nothing about how a load shoots other than “it sucks

well then whats the point of 10 why not 20

 

[Formidilosus]

well then whats the point of 10 why not 20

Now we’re talking. 95% probability is at 30
shots, and that is exactly what I do. Three shots (2 even) can tell you a load sucks, it can not tell you it doesn’t. 10 shot groups give a baseline indication of repeatability for most systems and starts to cross into enough satay points that decisions can be made with some degree of confidence. 3 shots is random noise that is more likely to lead you to an incorrect conclusion, than it is to lead you to a correct one. Take @cnelk target. Those three “groups” leads one to believe there is a difference between those loads- almost certainly there isn’t. Take all three, overlay them onto one target and you would see they start to form the true group- the cone. Take those same loads, reshoot them exactly the same, and again almost certainly they will change as to which is “better”.



The point of shooting “groups” is to see the difference between loads, see what size target that combination can reliably hit, and to see the true center of the cone. 3 shots does not do any of that. It is a feel good measure to lie to yourself about.

 

[Formidilosus]

Here is another: same exact rifle and ammo- which are the cold bore shots, which are the hot bore shots?

 

[Archer86]

Now we’re talking. 95% probability is at 30
shots, and that is exactly what I do. Three shots (2 even) can tell you a load sucks, it can not tell you it doesn’t. 10 shot groups give a baseline indication of repeatability for most systems and starts to cross into enough satay points that decisions can be made with some degree of confidence. 3 shots is random noise that is more likely to lead you to an incorrect conclusion, than it is to lead you to a correct one. Take @cnelk target. Those three “groups” leads one to believe there is a difference between those loads- almost certainly there isn’t. Take all three, overlay them onto one target and you would see they start to form the true group- the cone. Take those same loads, reshoot them exactly the same, and again almost certainly they will change as to which is “better”.



The point of shooting “groups” is to see the difference between loads, see what size target that combination can reliably hit, and to see the true center of the cone. 3 shots does not do any of that. It is a feel good measure to lie to yourself about.

What do you consider shooting a group when you say 30 round group I would consider that 30 consecutive shots no break to cool at all?

 

[ssimo]

Why isn’t this thread in the Reloading forum?

Because it's not only about reloading, look at my two questions!

 

[Formidilosus]

What do you consider shooting a group when you say 30 round group I would consider that 30 consecutive shots no break to cool at all?

You can do that, though barrel mirage is a problem. I generally do 3x10 round groups. One could do 6x5 round groups, or even 10x3 round groups. The barrel doesn’t care how hot it gets, and unless there is something mechanically wrong with the rifle, there is no difference in cold barrel versus warm barrel point of impact.

 

[ssimo]

Ok, Ciao, I used to live in Sicily, never hunted in Italy.

Question 1. Maybe.

Several things contribute to accuracy.
1. Condition and quality of the barrel
2. Harmonic function of the barrel and how that relates to the rifle action and stock. It is not very tight, and the barrel doesn't have the ability to flex the stock and or receiver can contribute negativly to accuracy.
3. Scope mount, and how well it controls the optic but does not impinge on the optic.
4. The optic itself and how well it is contained by the scope mount, and how tough it is in recoil.
5 The bullet and how it relates (shape, density, ogive, speed and bearing surface to the barrel).

So yes to answer your question, reloading gives you more control over my point 1 and 5. Saying that you must control everything else to increase accuracy.

But, your preferred bullet may or may not match well to your barrel.

To answer question 2. Yes you are correct. The higher quality the barrel and the better the tolerances are on the ammunition the higher odds that the ammunition will be accurate.

If you have an accuracy issue, you should always do 3 things.

1. tighten all bolts on the rifle to factory-recommended specs using a torque wrench.
2. verify your scope is working, swap it for another one and try that.
2. clean your barrel to zero, removing all copper and carbon (powder) fouling.

Then
1. Fire 10 rounds to foul the bore, do not clean it after this.
2. Try like you said 10 varieties of ammunition. Try to match the bullets to your desired characteristics. Choosing a common caliber like 308, 30-06, 6.5x55, 6.5 Creedmoor, 270, 300 Winchester, 7mm Remington Magnum , 7x64, or 8x57 will help. Common cartridges generally have more ammunition development than esoteric loadings. The 7mm Blaser is a perfect example of a cartridge that has one load.
3. Consider bedding an issue if you can't come up with an ammunition solution. For something that has a bedding block like a Blaser R8, Anschutz 1782, Sauer 404, Sauer 202 and other rifles you should not mess with the bedding block. For standard rifles Tikka T3, Winchester m70, remington 700, Sako 75, 85, AV, you need to bed the action to the stock. With somekind of compound like DevCon, or some other epoxy bed.
4. Shorter barrels always shoot better than long barrels. Consider having a very long barrel cut down to 22 inches for magnums or 18-20 inches for non-magnums. This is due the stiffness in the shorter barrels of the same dimensions. Don't believe me, try breaking a 8 inch pencil in half, and then try to break a 3 inch pencil in half.

Thanks! I agree with everything, you have definitely method for assessing issues. So you think that a barrel which is very picky with ammo but shoots a couple factory loads incredibly well is of lower quality than a barrel that shoots most loads decently but doesn't shine with anyone of them? I would much prefer to own the first barrel of the two!

 

[ssimo]

Well, somebody cared. It’s now in the Reloading forum

Why.. this doesn't make any sense.

 

[Go West Old Man]

1 shot groups bro. They are always sub moa LOL

I think there’s a bumper sticker here. @Steve300xcw , please edit for that & take credit!

 

[Archer86]

You can do that, though barrel mirage is a problem. I generally do 3x10 round groups. One could do 6x5 round groups, or even 10x3 round groups. The barrel doesn’t care how hot it gets, and unless there is something mechanically wrong with the rifle, there is no difference in cold barrel versus warm barrel point of impact.

I am not to far off from what you do. So 2 5 shot groups would be ok for you 10 round groups.

I typically shoot 3 shot groups to find a load that looks good then shoot five 5 shot groups to verify. But I never do longer strings of fire then 5 never have and never will.

I do disagree with heat not effecting a barrel so you think a factory rifle no work done you won't see point of impact shift?

 

[Mike Islander]

You can do that, though barrel mirage is a problem. I generally do 3x10 round groups. One could do 6x5 round groups, or even 10x3 round groups. The barrel doesn’t care how hot it gets, and unless there is something mechanically wrong with the rifle, there is no difference in cold barrel versus warm barrel point of impact.

Barrel mirage? Cardboard box. No problem.

 

[roadrunner]

Ok. So how are you determining that your first shot is always/consistently sub- moa (sub, sub MOA?) from your aimpoint?

Well, on Monday, if you can hit a tennis ball at 300 yds with your first shot, cold barrel, you'll know.

On Wednesday, if you can hit a nickel at 100 yds first shot cold, you'll know.

 

[Formidilosus]

I am not to far off from what you do. So 2 5 shot groups would be ok for you 10 round groups.

It’s not “for me”. It’s statistical validity and variation. The more shots are in a target at a single point of aim, the less variation you will see. But it doesn’t really matter what order they are shot in- 30 single cold bore shots, 10x three round groups, 3x ten round groups, etc. The only thing that hurts the more shots you take is barrel mirage. The only thing you lose by not getting the rifle hot is you don’t get to see if there is a mechanical problem that should be addressed.

I typically shoot 3 shot groups to find a load that looks good then shoot five 5 shot groups to verify. But I never do longer strings of fire then 5 never have and never will.

Both three and 5 shot groups can and will have large variations between individual groups. That is- a load that is a true 2 MOA load, will often enough put a 3 round group close to half an MOA, and a 5 round group close to .75 of an MOA. Of course the reverse is true as well- the same load will show a 3 or 5 round group at nearly 2 MOA- which is when people discount shots they don’t like (flyer of course).

So like most do it- load up 3 different charge weights and shoot them for three shot groups to see whether is better, you get random noise. You don’t actually see anything from that. Take cnelk’s target which is absolutely normal. The 45gr charge was about 1 MOA, the 46.5gr was about .5 MOA, and the 47.5gr was about 1.2 MOA. Of course the 46.5gr was the best, right? No. Even if we say that .5 MOA group is “average” for the 46.5gr, that same exact load will produce groups near .25 MOA, and over 1 MOA- just due to random variation.

But that’s not reality either. If he took and fired 10-30 shots with each of those three charge weights, odds are that all three would look nearly identical. If he took those three groups and overlaid them on each other with respect to point of aim, it would be much closer to the true “group” capability of the rifle and load.

I do disagree with heat not effecting a barrel so you think a factory rifle no work done you won't see point of impact shift?

It isnt an “I think” thing. I shoot dozens of factory rifles and barrels a year. If a rifle or barrel walks as it heats up, there something mechanically wrong. Winchesters, Remingtons, savages, Ruger’s, etc- sure their barrels suck often enough that it is a problem. Properly stress relieved barrels? No. Sako, Tikka, Blaser, Sauer, etc do not walk or move as the heat up.
I posted targets of two rifles that were shot for “cold bore” groups and zero, and with a hot bore group and zero- all shots for both guns are inside the true cones, and the mean point of impact is the same. Both are very thin barrels- one factory and one “custom”.


Here is another, factory, very thin barrel. Which are cold bore shots and which are hot bore? And when I say “hot” I mean water sizzling hot.

 

[Formidilosus]

Well, on Monday, if you can hit a tennis ball at 300 yds with your first shot, cold barrel, you'll know.

On Wednesday, if you can hit a nickel at 100 yds first shot cold, you'll know.

Yeah, no. Randomly hitting a tennis ball or nickel one time each isn’t “consistency” or “always”.