How do you set your rifle down in the field?

[roosiebull]

I agree with Form. I had never heard of water being an issue, I looked it up, them made a mental note not to load rounds hot.

If your chamber and rounds need to be dry over half of all hunts in Alaska, and 95% of hunts I do in Alaska are beyond the systems capabilities.

I’d be missing limbs if water was a normal problem

 

[hereinaz]

Hmmm, I ran 68.5 grains of H1000 in 7 Rem mag at 2975 with 180 VLD in 26” that is still under Hodgdon max. If I had ran powder to max, I wonder what velocity I would have hit.

I will just dial it back and test for issues with water.

 

[BigStick]

What messes me up is when I start getting over book speed at under book load. My RL17/250gr speer grand slam load was clocking well over the book max velocity at like half of book max load with the exact same primer at the same COAL. I understand how barrels/brass/primers/powder lot can make that happen, but that kinda stuff gives me the willies. I can't trust that stuff hunting.

Such things do of course vary,but the biggest difference(s) is in bore diameter and throat geometry.

I never put in any store,fretting someone else's rifle(s). Simply kiss,find pressure and rock on.

Not much to it.............

 

[BigStick]

For one,Booger COAL is exceedingly trite and I certainly wouldn't begin to field a platform so configured,especially with .284" 180's.

Upon a 7mm RemMag in particular,I want .796 BC 180 ELD's kissing square,no less than 3.580" COAL and that of course upon a 700. My 280's are configured likewise.

Such things leave me room to chase lands and opt .838 BC 190 A-Tips,should mood/need arise.

In 700,that plays nice in ADL,BDL or AICS.





Mechanics matter..............

 

[TaperPin]

I’ve had rifles that shoot slow and some that shoot quite fast - basing anything on published max data doesn‘t reflect what that rifle shoots. One 338 had a tight bore and was slow, very slow. You couldn’t get anywhere near max loads from any manual. Other guns were screamers and just because it shoots 100 - 150 fps faster than what’s typical doesn’t mean it’s over pressure.

There should probably be more discussion of how to determine max pressures rather than take the word of a book. I measure case heads for expansion, feel inside the case for thinning brass, pay attention to ejector marks, primer seating force, and ultimately go by case life. If cases survive 10 firings at normal 80 degree summer temps, I’ve never had an over pressure issue, and I’ve never known others who use these indicators. These loads normally exceed published max in powder charge and velocity, but not always.

It makes no sense for any company to make a published max load that didnt have a sizable safety margin for most guns, because of the variability in cheap factory guns.

Lapua brass is harder than most and holds up to pressure better - it’s common sense that higher velocities are safely attainable with good case life. Some lots of brass are softer than normal - I’ve tossed entire boxes of federal brass because it was ridiculously soft, but sometimes it’s one case out of hundreds. Cheap brass has more risk of uneven hardness, but none of it is perfect.

 

[Choupique]

I'll start a thread tonight inquiring about this stuff. I want good reliable safe hunting ammo that I can afford to shoot, which totally rules out factory 338win ammo nowadays.

To me, speed has to equal pressure to an extent and if I'm blowing to doors off the max listed velocity for that powder at 3 grains less than max, I've gotta be over pressure, right? Or maybe my chronograph just sucks. Idk. Pressure signs aren't there at all, load shoots great, butter smooth bolt lift... maybe I should just quit reading stuff on the internet and go hunting. That put a lot of meat in the freezer for a long time. I hunt in the rain A LOT though, so this is all of particular concern to me.

 

[BigStick]

I can only speak to multiple 100's of barrels and have yet to see a "fast" one,nor a "slow" one,in regards to Reloaded Ammo.

Ejector marks an brass thinning speak more to headspace,than they do "pressure". Same goes case life and to a degree,primer seating force.

Lapua brass is heavier than most and is of less internal volume,due same and will make more pressure,with less propellant. Same goes Alpha. Metallurgy is obviously a facet too and that is why those two flavors are without peer.

The worse batch of Virgins I've ever suffered,was Peterson. Followed by Norma. Hornady has never had anything approaching good,nor has Nosler(oft Norma). I'll greedily take Federal,over all of it and I hate Federal.

Velocity is pressure. You don't reap a 150fps increase. GOOD brass,in a GOOD chamber,in conjunction with GOOD dies will mask such things,but it's never not pressure.

Bullets matter so much more and I'm happy to let them,do the heavy lifting. As case capacity goes,less is very often more,due same.............

 

[BigStick]

I'll start a thread tonight inquiring about this stuff. I want good reliable safe hunting ammo that I can afford to shoot, which totally rules out factory 338win ammo nowadays.

To me, speed has to equal pressure to an extent and if I'm blowing to doors off the max listed velocity for that powder at 3 grains less than max, I've gotta be over pressure, right? Or maybe my chronograph just sucks. Idk. Pressure signs aren't there at all, load shoots great, butter smooth bolt lift... maybe I should just quit reading stuff on the internet and go hunting. That put a lot of meat in the freezer for a long time. I hunt in the rain A LOT though, so this is all of particular concern to me.

The Water Notion is humorous. Rest assured,nobody drives Wet Rifles more than I. In fact,I've a soaking Custom Howie Mini 264 Grendel,in the front seat now. Slipped to a CLOSE Hidey Hole,but wind was wrong and I backed,then remembered it's GrandBaby's B-day and threw in the towel.

I barely get 180" of rain a year. There's ZERO correlation to same and "pressure". That barring something frozen in the bore.

Headspace control is 100% the greatest malady and doubly so on things wearing a belt..............

 

[TaperPin]

There is also a misunderstanding of what water in the chamber is doing - it’s not affecting the pressures inside the case, but lubricates the brass so it can’t grip the chamber walls and that greatly increases bolt thrust, just as an oiled up chamber would. Slamming the case head hard against the bolt has predictable affects on the brass - just like if you smacked a penny with a hammer - it squishes outward increasing head diameter and loosening the primer pocket. I didn’t invent this idea, it’s well documented.

As for tight chambers, small necks, an minimal case sizing being a poor choice for hunting, it’s only a poor choice if the shooter doesn’t understand the importance of keeping the barrel clean, especially the neck and throat of the chamber where carbon buildup (carbon rings) causes most problems. Being able to shoot over 200 rounds without cleaning sounds tough and cool, but proper cleaning isnt that hard, and the benefits of tighter chambers can make a bigger influence on group size than anything related to components.

It‘s also an urban myth that seating close to, or even into the lands is somehow dangerous if done properly. The OSHA idiot proof answer is to never do it, but in a number of shooting segments it’s not only common, but almost standard practice. Like tight chambers, if you are going to do it, you have to do it well. You can’t assume anything and just randomly jamming a bullet and using a hot load will cause problems. If someone doesn’t even know how to tell if a bullet is jammed, you should not do it. Jammed too much and your bullet can be pulled out, spilling powder everywhere and leaving the gun inoperative. At average hunting accuracy levels, it’s not even going to buy you much. There’s also no guarantee that’s where your gun will shoot best - if you don’t understand working up loads, don’t jam anything.

I think the best hunting rifles ARE match rifles - a little lighter, but still very accurate. Just like there is nothing wrong with a factory pickup, to say the only proper truck has to be factory stock is ludicrous - better tires/engine hp/suspension allows it to do things the factory pickup can’t.

Having said that, some people shouldn’t handload and shouldn’t try modifying their truck.

 

[BigStick]

Everyone botches headspace control,from the first shot,to the last.

Then they botch seating depth.

Those two simplistic matters,can,will and do,cause issues for many.

Myths and Wives' Tales,die the most lingering of deaths................

 

[TaperPin]

I can only speak to multiple 100's of barrels and have yet to see a "fast" one,nor a "slow" one,in regards to Reloaded Ammo.

You’ve been very fortunate - someone wouldn’t even need to look for pressure signs if that were the case - just go by bullet velocity.

 

[BigStick]

Kiss,find pressure and rock on. Things are as easy and complete,as one allows them to be.

Since the advent of Ballistic AE,I've not whistled a single round over any of my (3) chronographs. Though admittedly,I gun erectors of repute.

One makes their own "fortune" and such things are of interest to me.................

 

[TaperPin]

To me, speed has to equal pressure to an extent and if I'm blowing to doors off the max listed velocity for that powder at 3 grains less than max, I've gotta be over pressure, right?

Maybe. Maybe not. Remember why we track pressure - so it’s safe and reliable for the intended purpose with the components we have. What’s safe with one combination is not with another.

Pressure under the pressure curve determines how much force is placed on the bullet, and that’s affected by a lot of things other than powder charge. New barrels are relatively smooth and as the throat erodes and heat cracking increases, the bullet has more resistance and that extra resistance early on often increases velocity without increasing max pressure - it’s increasing the pressure under the pressure curve, not the max pressure.

 

[BigStick]

I shoot moly expressly,for more than a few reasons.............

 

[TaperPin]

I shoot moly expressly,for more than a few reasons.............

I tried moly for a few years, didn’t provide a benefit for my rifles, but it would have been nice if it had.

What benefits did it have for you?

 

[BigStick]

I've only shot it in 100's of barrels expressly and for 30yrs+.

It keeps everything but projectiles,out of my bores. It provides a huge window of consistent performance.

Many were quick to "think" it's "speed",which it isn't. It's all about consistency................

 

[Marbles]

There is also a misunderstanding of what water in the chamber is doing - it’s not affecting the pressures inside the case, but lubricates the brass so it can’t grip the chamber walls and that greatly increases bolt thrust, just as an oiled up chamber would. Slamming the case head hard against the bolt has predictable affects on the brass - just like if you smacked a penny with a hammer - it squishes outward increasing head diameter and loosening the primer pocket. I didn’t invent this idea, it’s well documented.

If you have testing data to back this up, I'll believe it because what happens in a chamber is complex. However, this does not align with basic physics. Large amounts of water between two surfaces does act like a lubricant, however thin layers of water frequently act as an adhesive (why breathing on a spoon lets you hang it from your nose, also why wet stones stick together when being lapped).

Plus, if this is the cause than we are saying the entire case is moving back in the chamber rather than the brass adhering to the chamber walls and creating a seal, so there should be gas leak. Only the case head moves back, because it does not expand radially, lubrication plays no role in that because (as evidenced by being able to chamber the round) the radial dimension of the case head already moves freely in the chamber.

Moreover, a primer would not blow from its own momentum against the bolt face, it is pressure from within the case causing that.

It makes a lot more sense that having a relatively incomprehensible substance take up chamber space, then try to expand as it turns to compressed steam, simply has the effect of a tighter chamber or lower volume brass on a powder charge that was maxed for a looser chamber.

 

[ElkArcher918]

I either set it down on my bipod, backpack, or bare ground. C'mon, my rifles are for hunting and not adoration like a wife or dainty flower.

 

[TaperPin]

If you have testing data to back this up, I'll believe it because what happens in a chamber is complex. However, this does not align with basic physics. Large amounts of water between two surfaces does act like a lubricant, however thin layers of water frequently act as an adhesive (why breathing on a spoon lets you hang it from your nose, also why wet stones stick together when being lapped).

Plus, if this is the cause than we are saying the entire case is moving back in the chamber rather than the brass adhering to the chamber walls and creating a seal, so there should be gas leak. Only the case head moves back, because it does not expand radially, lubrication plays no role in that because (as evidenced by being able to chamber the round) the radial dimension of the case head already moves freely in the chamber.

The case definitely seals, but it seals at the neck. Expansion of the body during ignition grips the chamber walls and normally takes much of the pressure off the bolt face. The point in the brass slightly above the head that is too thick and stiff to expand is where case heads normal separate and can be felt with a paper clip on the inside of the case. Above this point grips the chamber, below is free to move toward the bolt and the strength of brass has to be overcome for this to happen.

Just like we want all oil off rings and scope tube, oil or any liquid in the chamber allows the brass to slip. A light film of oil on a scope does not help it “stick”.

Experimenting with Bolt Thrust

Does the Ackley improved case design actually reduce bolt thrust? Find out in this excerpt from Fred Zeglin's new book on P.O. Ackley.

gundigest.com

 

[Marbles]

Edit, this post, which is quoted below, was based on incorrect data. It's arguments are pointless, so I removed it.