How do you set your rifle down in the field?

[Marbles]

I agree with Form. I had never heard of water being an issue, I looked it up, them made a mental note not to load rounds hot.

If your chamber and rounds need to be dry over half of all hunts in Alaska, and 95% of hunts I do in Alaska are beyond the systems capabilities.

 

[Formidilosus]

So form, are you aware of any good reliable model 700 style triggers out there?

There isn’t one. The best was the Geissele Super 700 which is discontinued. The issue is inherent to the R700 design/sear/etc. Lots of places and companies have tried, they all are less reliable and more prone to firing upon bolt close than other designs.

As far as rounds go, your stuff is full length sized and loaded to factory OAL?

Correct. There is a thread in the reloading sub forum titled “painless load development” or simple about how I do it. Reliability is factor number one for me.

 

[Formidilosus]

Is the trigger system sub par for reliability or just feel?

Reliability. They’re a lots of excellent feeling R700 triggers.


To be clear- it is not that “good” R700 triggers all a fail all the time. Much like scopes, it’s that they have known design issues that make it more likely, and when rifles are used side by side in the same conditions, even good R700 triggers have significantly higher rates of failures and problems than others.

 

[JohnJohnson]

Reliability. They’re a lots of excellent feeling R700 triggers.


To be clear- it is not that “good” R700 triggers all a fail all the time. Much like scopes, it’s that they have known design issues that make it more likely, and when rifles are used side by side in the same conditions, even good R700 triggers have significantly higher rates of failures and problems than others.

Just for clarity, the Mausingfield specifically has an unreliable trigger system or the issue is inherent in R700 triggers themselves and the Mausingfield does not make them more unreliable?

 

[Choupique]

Reliability is factor number one for me.

Good stuff. I'm still hunting with factory stuff only since I don't trust my reloads yet. Appreciate all the time spent sharing information.

 

[Formidilosus]

Just for clarity, the Mausingfield specifically has an unreliable trigger system or the issue is inherent in R700 triggers themselves and the Mausingfield does not make them more unreliable?

All R700 triggers have the problem- it’s not an action thing. The Mausingfield is an excellent action that Ted went to great lengths to bring in the best features to create the most reliable action possible in his mind- then stuck the worst mainstream trigger system made in it.

 

[Choupique]

Copy on the trigger issue. That sucks since it's the most common thing out there.

I really wish there were a modern equivalent of the mauser 96. I really like the design and the ones I've shot all shot well. I like the cock on close, simple 2 stage trigger, fixed ejector, and how the follower stops the bolt when empty. The safety is pretty great to with how it cams the hammer back. Big ass heavy firing pin with a really stiff spring and tool-free disassembly. Seems those old war rifles were made for maximum reliability and abuse, and still shoot really well. Not sure why that isn't commonly available anymore.

 

[JohnJohnson]

All R700 triggers have the problem- it’s not an action thing. The Mausingfield is an excellent action that Ted went to great lengths to bring in the best features to create the most reliable action possible in his mind- then stuck the worst mainstream trigger system made in it.

Got it. I was getting a bit worried since I actually have a Mausingfield/Proof barreled action that I just put a stock on and am looking to get operational now.

 

[Formidilosus]

Got it. I was getting a bit worried since I actually have a Mausingfield/Proof barreled action that I just put a stock on and am looking to get operational now.

What trigger are you using?

 

[wind gypsy]

Back to the Colorado hunt, I blew a primer in my Nucleus, running a decent but not visibly hot load in my 7 sherman short mag 180 VLD at 3050 with H1000. At that time, I just had a scope cover and didn't worry about the moisture on the rifle. I shouldn't have shot it as "moist" as it was without checking the chamber and ammo.

You got Sherman'd. No visibly hot load signs necessary, that speed has to be 100 FPS past "hot".

 

[JohnJohnson]

What trigger are you using?

It currently has a TriggerTech Special in it but I'll likely eventually put a Huber "two-stage" on it since for some odd reason I just shoot better with that brand/style of trigger. I'm aware that I shouldn't take up the first stage of the Huber and not re-engage the safety because of possible drop issues if I do since it's a staged-break instead of a true two-stage. But if I'm moving the rifle for any reason it'll be on safe anyway so I don't see it as a point of concern in that arena at least.

 

[hereinaz]

Thank you for responding.




The issue here isn’t some water in a chamber- literally millions of rounds of ammo are shot in total downpours ever year. Rain, water, snow, dirt are all realities of life and the guns must work in those conditions.

It’s a combination of things that starts with people getting cute with chamber specs, loads, and actions. “Tight” chambers “for accuracy”, bullets kissing, touching, or near the lands; neck sizing only, loads too hot just “going by pressure signs”, and reusing brass too many times are all problems. That is gamer, sitting on a bench nonsense.

Field rifles, chambers, and throats need correct tolerances for field use. Loads should not be run “near, but below pressure signs”, bullets need to be nowhere near the lands, and brass shouldn’t be reused 10 times. Doing so- rifles should have zero issues being submerged in water, then having the bolt cracked to drain it and then firing. Do the same with how most load ammo, how people want the chambers cut, and crappy rifles- yes you can have issues.


Field guns aren’t match guns.






The Mausingfield is a very good action that is hampered by a very sub par trigger system. With a different trigger system they would be the action I use for everything.






This is not uncommon at all with Savages, and lots of other action, though Savages are at the top of the list for mechanical failures when used, especially in non sterile conditions. They simply have way less margin for error in reliably feeding and functioning than others.


I’m not trying to harp on you, or anyone else. All equipment pushed hard enough will fail, however if you are going to base your decisions on two objectively compromised systems, then yes you will think every rifle needs a condom to work.
The difference between a R700 based action and trigger, or Savage rifle with loads that are worked up as most do, with compromised chambers and throats- and a robust rifle system from Tikka, Blaser, AI, Sako S20 or TRG, Sauer, etc, or in most cases a M70 with old style triggers and correct ammo- is worlds apart.


There is a demonstrable difference between rifle systems and where each consistently fails.

Thank you for the response and info. Knowing the limitations of what I have is helpful. There is no ignoring your experience.

A little extra care will keep what I have usable. But, I will probably look at going with a different action when I burn out this barrel. Maybe even a Tikka…

I will have to run some water tests on my current system. That’s really what rises to a level of concern for me. I don’t get cute with loading, but I wonder whether my cartridge choice is designed too cute.

 

[hereinaz]

You got Sherman'd. No visibly hot load signs necessary, that speed has to be 100 FPS past "hot".

Might be, and I’ll have to look at it and back off if necessary.

Maybe I need to do “wet” load test, starting low and see where pressure with water is an issue. Just to do a proofing of my system in worst possible conditions.

 

[Formidilosus]

It currently has a TriggerTech Special in it but I'll likely eventually put a Huber "two-stage" on it since for some odd reason I just shoot better with that brand/style of trigger. I'm aware that I shouldn't take up the first stage of the Huber and not re-engage the safety because of possible drop issues if I do since it's a staged-break instead of a true two-stage. But if I'm moving the rifle for any reason it'll be on safe anyway so I don't see it as a point of concern in that arena at least.

Thank you, and sounds like you got it figured out.

 

[wind gypsy]

Might be, and I’ll have to look at it and back off if necessary.

Maybe I need to do “wet” load test, starting low and see where pressure with water is an issue. Just to do a proofing of my system in worst possible conditions.

Cant hurt to test with moisture but the chrono tells the story in most cases. pushing until you have pressure signs with a good action and tough brass is the issue. By the time there are signs, you're probably well past typcal SAAMI max. The chrono already told you have high pressure regardless of what the sherman guys are peddling.

So looking at a 7 rem mag that has 10ish grains more H20 capacity than a 7SS, it's reasonable to think once you hit book max 7 RM velocities with a case that is significantly smaller, you're already making high pressures to get there. 3050 FPS with H1000 is over 100 FPS faster yet than book max 7 RM loads. It's 220 FPS faster than Bergers max 180 vld load in a 7RM with h1000! (bergers data does tend to suck but still!).

 

[BigStick]

I don't carry a bipod with me, so sometimes I struggle finding a good spot to set my rifle down when I find a glassing spot (if it's not in my pack or I don't have a pack). Sometimes on steep or rugged terrain there's just not a good place to set it without it sliding down, scraping up the scope or stock on rocks, or laying it in a bunch of brush or dirt. If I have my pack I'll usually try to lay it on the pack. Just wondering what others do that don't carry a bipod or don't have it in a pack.

The way this guy does it,makes sense to me............

This Way

And That

 

[Choupique]

What messes me up is when I start getting over book speed at under book load. My RL17/250gr speer grand slam load was clocking well over the book max velocity at like half of book max load with the exact same primer at the same COAL. I understand how barrels/brass/primers/powder lot can make that happen, but that kinda stuff gives me the willies. I can't trust that stuff hunting.

 

[hereinaz]

Cant hurt to test with moisture but the chrono tells the story in most cases. pushing until you have pressure signs with a good action and tough brass is the issue. By the time there are signs, you're probably well past typcal SAAMI max. The chrono already told you have high pressure regardless of what the sherman guys are peddling.

So looking at a 7 rem mag that has 10ish grains more H20 capacity than a 7SS, it's reasonable to think once you hit book max 7 RM velocities with a case that is significantly smaller, you're already making high pressures to get there. 3050 FPS with H1000 is over 100 FPS faster yet than book max 7 RM loads. It's 220 FPS faster than Bergers max 180 vld load in a 7RM with h1000! (bergers data does tend to suck but still!).

What’s the powder charge for them? I don’t have Bergers book.

 

[wind gypsy]

What’s the powder charge for them? I don’t have Bergers book.

Again, Berger’s book is the worst I’ve seen IMO.
But Hodgdon lists 69.5 gr h1000 @ 2884 fps in 24” barrel, Lyman shows a 175 grand slam max @ 2897 in 26” barrel, nosler shows a 175 ablr max of 2850 in 24”, barnes has 171 match burner @ 2890 fps in 24” barrel. Those are all max with h1000 loads.

 

[roosiebull]

Why didn’t you answer the questions in that post?

As for a scope cover, yes. I couldn’t care less about the action, however lenses are the most fragile part of a good rifle system relatively speaking.


So now I’m confused- is it not abuse because the lenses are covered, or is it still abuse because they are touching the ground?
View attachment 624905

Agree, I either have bikini covers or a rapid rifle cover on just to keep the lenses from taking abuse. Bikini if it’s really wet and the rapid rifle cover if not. Doesn’t take much to beat up lenses