How did ancient / native people not get botulism from smoking?

[NickKreutz]

My guess is that they did get botulism/other food borne diseases plenty of times. Just wasnt documented, or noone knew what it was or what caused it. "as far as we can tell, jimmy died from blood ghosts"

 

[WCB]

That jerky chew was the best. Everyone at t ball packing a fat dip and itching your balls like the major leaguers haha. It was fun growing up in the 80’s

80's? hell I'm 36 and did the same thing...when I got sick of that just got a fat wad of Big League Chew in the pouch...spit strings for days.

Also...there are people still alive today that drink water from elephant dung and drink straight out of water holes where stuff has been sh!tting, pissing and rotting...

 

[Marmots]

As far as botulism and jerky specifically, I made bison jerky the traditional way with some native friends a few times when I lived on the flathead rez. The traditional jerky is incredibly thin cut. You turn a muscle into a paper-thin spiral. The smoking is so low temp that it basically just keeps flies from laying eggs on the meat while it air dries. The jerky was traditionally hung for storage. It will mould if you keep it in a plastic bag. Long story short, the meat was cut and stored so that oxygen could always permeate it.

Generally speaking, I think you just tolerate gnarlier foods if you grown up with them and regularly eat them. I don't mean any disrespect for anyone's culture when I say I've accepted some fermented whale and bird parts up in Uqtiagvik that haunted my guts for a while an made me think I had permanently damaged my ability to smell.

 

[Huntindog45]

People have always smoked meat to preserve, example the natives / indians in north america to create a jerky. Smoking can create anaerobic environment in the "danger zone" for bacteria. They did not have fancy ovens, temperature gauge , timers or nitrates. How did they not get botulism? What did they do differently?

Did they maybe smoke it until it was very dry, then add more heat to "kill off" any potential botulism that could have growed? The temps im seeing are 175f for 5 mins to denature the toxins the spores create.

the average lifespan was about 35... something was killing them. botulism, salmonella, trichinosis, probably all played significant rolls.

 

[AG8]

But it wasnt from lack of Baby Formula.

Not to get off topic here but yes, malnourishment and disease directly attributable to it were a big part of infant mortality rates pre-20th century

 

[FLATHEAD]

Prolly from just lack of food in general.
I remember my Grandfather talking about eating
nothing but cornmeal "mush" for weeks.
And anxiously awaiting Spring for the wild onions
to show up so they could add that to their cornmeal
for some flavor.

 

[Actual_Cryptid]

As is often the answer to these kinds of questions, some of them did, just like more newborns died of malnutrition and disease, more children died of flu and other diseases, more people died of simple infections.

 

[Gutshot007]

It's the microbes that get you in the end. Unless your a rock star, then it's the sex,drugs ,and rock n roll with a little alcohol thrown in for good measure. (Their lifespan is probably less than 30 years old . Unless your Keith Richards from the Rolling Stones)

 

[AG8]

Prolly from just lack of food in general.
I remember my Grandfather talking about eating
nothing but cornmeal "mush" for weeks.
And anxiously awaiting Spring for the wild onions
to show up so they could add that to their cornmeal
for some flavor.

Yes, many people have died of malnutrition in the past. The statement you made though was about baby formula. To a baby of less than 4-6 months, food is either milk or formula. There just isnt any other way around that. So yes, formula was hugely important to the reduction in infant starvation/mortality. Sorry if I sound antagonistic. I don’t mean to. Read this thread while rocking my infant to sleep, and I get a little grumpy when some say the formula thing is no big deal because we didn’t have it before.

 

[Actual_Cryptid]

the average lifespan was about 35... something was killing them. botulism, salmonella, trichinosis, probably all played significant rolls.

This is something of a numbers trick, high infant and post-natal mortality combined with the deaths of the more impetuous young men rocks that average pretty low. The people who managed to survive past 35 tended to live into their 60s and beyond pretty regularly.

Thus once basic sanitation, nutrition, and wound care is established we see population booms, and again once the fulter of epidemic disease is removed through vaccination and preventative and supportive care.

 

[FLATHEAD]

I had not realized we had become, as a society, so frail and
dependent on baby formula.
I simply did not realize. I never had an ounce of it, and neither had my son,
my 4 cousins, nor my wife. Not to mention my parents or grandparents. Baby formula was just never a thing. The only
"Baby formula" we had was evaporated milk, and as soon as
we were able, pureed (sp)?, real food. I did love me some Gerber
banana though. Still do.
Course, food allergies werent a thing either.

 

[Actual_Cryptid]

While that’s true, it’s twofold. First, wet nursing isn’t a thing anymore, although it was mostly the wealthy who could hire a wet nurse if there was a milk shortage. We don’t live in tight communities where you could hand off a kid to a sister in law either. On top of that wages haven’t kept up to cost of living, so poorer parents (those who can’t afford a lactation consultant, and may be undernourished themselves) or more likely to need to work. Pumping and storing is a thing but that also costs money. You can see the pattern here right? I have my grumbles about the way companies like Nestle push formula on parents, but it also meets a valuable niche.

And it bears mentioning that “I didn’t need formula” doesn’t really tell us much. Much like “I drank from the hose and never wore a helmet” it’s just citing survivorship. I’ll spare you the pictures of WWII bombers with holes and the bon motte about why they didn’t put more armor where the holes were on surviving aircraft.

Powdered milk is a worst case, but proper baby formula contains more of the nutrients that baby humans need to develop. Powdered cow milk doesn’t have the same nutrition profile and often has more complex sugars added as well. Also, especially important for infants, dehydrated milk is not tested to the same standards of cleanliness as infant food, and little babies are especially vulnerable while their immune system and gut biome is still developing.

 

[FLATHEAD]

If you're saying poverty is the driving cause, you are preaching
to the choir. I grew up in the foothills of the Appalachians.
Didnt realize we were so poor till much later in life.
And we certainly couldnt afford a "lactation consultant" LOL!!!
Whatever that is. And my wife, who spent the first 22 years of
her life in Cuba says formula did not exist there.
Just my personal experience.
I dont have anything against Formula, just didnt realize the
dependence.

 

[william schmaltz]

And we certainly couldnt afford a "lactation consultant" LOL!!!
Whatever that is. And my wife, who spent the first 22 years of
her life in Cuba says formula did not exist there.
Just my personal experience.
I dont have anything against Formula, just didnt realize the
dependence.

I had not realized we had become, as a society, so frail and
dependent on baby formula.
I simply did not realize. I never had an ounce of it, and neither had my son,
my 4 cousins, nor my wife. Not to mention my parents or grandparents. Baby formula was just never a thing. The only

If more people utilized their lactation consultant, which are free in all birth facilities and most pediatric clinics, it's practically a guarantee we would have WAY more mothers sticking with breast feeding and not be so reliant on the formula you seem to be so obsessed with.

We have a society where we have a new generation of mother's who can't produce milk, couples that can't create babies, and more new allergies and mental disorders than we can count. These aren't things our younger generations have chosen because they're soft; they're results of being poisoned by our "food" systems (corn, sugar, soy, pesticides, herbicides), pharmaceuticals, pollution, birth control, etc. Handed down from a generation that seems to have nothing better to do with their time but constantly complain about these new hurdles we've created for our population.

My 3rd baby is 3 weeks old today and he's downstairs eating from his mother right this moment. Luckily, none of my three kids have needed to have a sip of formula. Several people aren't so lucky. We had a baby pass away last year and my wife donated breast milk to another lady for 6 months afterwards. Despite trying literally everything, and to no fault of her own, that poor woman just could not produce milk. 200 years ago her baby would've died or would've required a community of willing mothers to help feed it. Ugly facts of nature. Thank God for baby formula for people in her heartbreaking position.

 

[CorbLand]

If more people utilized their lactation consultant, which are free in all birth facilities and most pediatric clinics, it's practically a guarantee we would have WAY more mothers sticking with breast feeding and not be so reliant on the formula you seem to be so obsessed with.

We have a society where we have a new generation of mother's who can't produce milk, couples that can't create babies, and more new allergies and mental disorders than we can count. These aren't things our younger generations have chosen because they're soft; they're results of being poisoned by our "food" systems (corn, sugar, soy, pesticides, herbicides), pharmaceuticals, pollution, birth control, etc. Handed down from a generation that seems to have nothing better to do with their time but constantly complain about these new hurdles we've created for our population.

My 3rd baby is 3 weeks old today and he's downstairs eating from his mother right this moment. Luckily, none of my three kids have needed to have a sip of formula. Several people aren't so lucky. We had a baby pass away last year and my wife donated breast milk to another lady for 6 months afterwards. Despite trying literally everything, and to no fault of her own, that poor woman just could not produce milk. 200 years ago her baby would've died or would've required a community of willing mothers to help feed it. Ugly facts of nature. Thank God for baby formula for people in her heartbreaking position.

I have never "liked" a single thing on Rokslide but **** me, you came pretty close to making me do a first.

I am 30 and my oldest brother is 38. My mom could not produce enough milk to feed any of her three kids. We were all formula fed. This is not new, its not because people only want convenience and if it is, well good for them. We have created a society so prosperous that you can spend money on convenience. I find it ironic that a generation that created wealth at rates never seen in human history all bitch about the younger generation taking advantage of what was created.

 

[Gutshot007]

Just to clear the air and so no one''s feelings get hurt. In 2022 proper terminology is "Chest feeding" not "Breast feeding"

 

[WRM]

They also had an infant mortality rate 5-6 times greater than we have today.

Mortality in the past: every second child died

The chances that a newborn survives childhood have increased from 50% to 96% globally. This article asks how we know about the mortality of children in the past and what we can learn from it for our future.

ourworldindata.org

And look where that's gotten us.

How you think they could live with and on and in harmony with the land? Cuz there weren't 300+ million of them doing it!!

Bring on a real pandemic!

 

[WRM]

With the way things are going I think it wise to stock up on salt, sugar, vinegar, citric acid and a pressure canner. All are vital for preserving foods. Make your own non perishable goods.

All useful cookware items made before 1994 are considered Class III cookware items and can only be owned if registered prior to the NCA (National Cookware Act). If properly registered, they may be transferred, with a $200 stamp and an approval period, which is running 30-40 months. Cookware subject to the NCA may not be manufactured, whether from scratch or thru the use of once popular 80% cookware kits.

 

[FLATHEAD]

Ah, it just hit me. The Formula is needed for all the pregnant men
who cant lactate.
I mean, since I'm obsessed with formula.

 

[Gutshot007]

Ah, it just hit me. The Formula is needed for all the pregnant men
who cant lactate.
I mean, since I'm obsessed with formula.

See ,now you got it . Next can you guys move on to "MENSTRUAL EQUITY " . Oregon has decided to put tampons in the "boys" restrooms according to the Menstrual Dignity Act. (Sorry about the massive derail "botulism to breast feeding to menstruation. I guess this all has something to due with the survival of our species )