How did ancient / native people not get botulism from smoking?

[yeti14]

Botulism is an anaerobic bacteria, meaning it has to live in an oxygen free environment. Most cases seen are from improperly canned or vac sealed foods where all the oxygen has been removed. Like the previous link to the CDC referenced, some native food practices in Alaska in modern times have caused illness when using modern conveniences like 5 gallon plastic buckets. Plastic obviously doesn't allow air movement and creates an oxygen free environment.

 

[Fatcamp]

This is interesting reading from the CDC.

Alaska Native Foods | Botulism | CDC

human botulism, Clostridium botulinum, C botulinum, CB toxin, botulinum toxin, neuroparalysis, neurotoxin, food-borne botulism, FBB, wound botulism, WB

www.cdc.gov

That was super interesting. Have you tried any of those fermented foods?

 

[Tod osier]

That was super interesting. Have you tried any of those fermented foods?

No, never had access to those items, just a general interest in food preservation and read about it in my search to understand the risks of botulism in making sausages. Wife has a friend that has worked in some remote coastal villages in AK, and that is where I first heard about the fermented meats like that. She was offered fermented baby walrus flipper and I guess that was a great honor.

Lot of cultures have stuff like that, one of my favorites (to read about) is kiviak.

Kiviak: The Bizarre Greenland Inuit Seal Delicacy

Kiviak (sometimes spelled Kiviaq) is quite possibly one of the strangest, most bizarre delicacies eaten anywhere in the world. A traditional dish eaten in Greenland by inuits during the winter period, particularly over Christmas, Kiviak consists of

travelfoodatlas.com

 

[jfs82]

Possibly saltpeter? It’s been around and has been used as an antimicrobial in meat for thousands of years. Botulism also requires a lack of oxygen, so I think risk is fairly low in a muscle cut smoked/dried jerky, especially if the moisture content was also pretty low. If they were making sausage way back in the day, then I’m not sure…

This likely has a bg piece of the puzzle in it. I've done quite a bit of curing over the years (sometimes just hanging from water pipes under the house when the weather is right). Generally, whole muscle cuts are fine with just salt and time, It is the ground charcuterie with the millions of tiny air pockets in a stuffed sausage that gets you in trouble without curing salts. The air drying and smoking with salt creates an inhospitable environment to bacteria on the meat with botulism not really being an issue until you remove the oxygen.

 

[*zap*]

Take a look at pemmican.

 

[Keptwalkin]

Must be the anaerobic environment needed for it to grow. Smoked meats back in the day were hung out over racks rather than enclosed by my understanding

 

[ozyclint]

As far as I understand, low PH, oxygen and temperature are crucial factors effecting growth if botulism bacteria. We probably eat the bacteria everyday but the acidic conditions in our gut renders it harmless.
As does the acidic conditions created by the use of vinegar in pickled goods.

Without the acidic conditions (canning meat) you need high temperature to destroy the spores. Boiling will kill the bacteria but not the spores hence the need for pressure to raise the temperature high enough to kill the spores.

A non acidic anaerobic environment is needed for it to produce the toxin.

Simply slicing the meat thin enough to expose it to the air, drying it before spoilage and smoking it would be sufficient.

Confit is another preservation technique. Meat is cooked slowly in rendered fat. The fat allows the temp to go above that of boiling water creating a sterile environment. By simply keeping the meat submerged and letting the fat solidify it creates its own storage container, the fat excluding bacteria and oxygen. It could then be kept for months in a cool cellar. The French mastered confit.

 

[Tod osier]

One of the easiest recipes I’ve seen that has been used for generations is Machacado.

I know of a plant that slices rounds about 1/8” thick, covers both sides in seas salt. It’s then laid out on screens, cooked to internal temp of 180 deg for the first hour with high humidity(damper closed, water pan on heat source), then reduced to 145 for 12-16 hours.

It’s completely dry at us point, crunchy almost. No additional ingredients used. It’s then shredded like the old kids Jerky Chew junk. This is added it eggs, soups, etc as a protein source.

It’s a fairly easy process, as it lowers the water activity well below the threshold to kill pathogens. Listeria is the main concern in dried meats, so post lethality contact with equipment, tables, cutting boards etc is how that is reintroduced, as it should be reduced to a point safe to eat.

This is shelf stable product, can be kept for a long time without refrigeration.

I'm sure there is a difference, but that sounds like carne seca. Love it.

 

[BBob]

I'm sure there is a difference, but that sounds like carne seca. Love it.

Yes, subtle differences in the way Carne Seca and Machaca are prepared. Very similar but different

We have a restaurant here that’s been making machaca sun dried on the rooftops for decades.

 

[Tod osier]

Yes, subtle differences in the way Carne Seca and Machaca are prepared. Very similar but different

We have a restaurant here that’s been making machaca sun dried on the rooftops for decades.

My experience only is carne seca at el charro in Tucson. Been a number of times in the past couple decades. Really enjoy it,

 

[roadrunner]

The world of antiquity was way smarter than we give them credit for.

There has been a lot of conventional wisdom lost over the years.

 

[FLATHEAD]

No, never had access to those items, just a general interest in food preservation and read about it in my search to understand the risks of botulism in making sausages. Wife has a friend that has worked in some remote coastal villages in AK, and that is where I first heard about the fermented meats like that. She was offered fermented baby walrus flipper and I guess that was a great honor.

Lot of cultures have stuff like that, one of my favorites (to read about) is kiviak.

Kiviak: The Bizarre Greenland Inuit Seal Delicacy

Kiviak (sometimes spelled Kiviaq) is quite possibly one of the strangest, most bizarre delicacies eaten anywhere in the world. A traditional dish eaten in Greenland by inuits during the winter period, particularly over Christmas, Kiviak consists of

travelfoodatlas.com

Good Gosh, that stuff sounds deadly.

 

[Phaseolus]

There is a reason life span was very short back then. 30 was old.

 

[FatCampzWife]

As far as I understand, low PH, oxygen and temperature are crucial factors effecting growth if botulism bacteria. We probably eat the bacteria everyday but the acidic conditions in our gut renders it harmless.
As does the acidic conditions created by the use of vinegar in pickled goods.

Without the acidic conditions (canning meat) you need high temperature to destroy the spores. Boiling will kill the bacteria but not the spores hence the need for pressure to raise the temperature high enough to kill the spores.

A non acidic anaerobic environment is needed for it to produce the toxin.

Simply slicing the meat thin enough to expose it to the air, drying it before spoilage and smoking it would be sufficient.

Confit is another preservation technique. Meat is cooked slowly in rendered fat. The fat allows the temp to go above that of boiling water creating a sterile environment. By simply keeping the meat submerged and letting the fat solidify it creates its own storage container, the fat excluding bacteria and oxygen. It could then be kept for months in a cool cellar. The French mastered confit.

This. I teach a course on all things food preservation, and the above explanation is pretty much why ancient peeps did not regularly die from botulism. Our guts deal with minute populations/spores of the botulism-producing bacteria after we are about 12 months old. Babies don't have a fully developed gut biome until then, & honey has botulism microbe spores...
Lack of moisture (water potential) & pH are huge factors in not killing your family when prepping foods for later use.
The main form of meat preservation for a while was sun-dried or smoked, they added spices & salt a bit later. They ground & powdered these strips to use in pemmican.
If this thread is still going strong Monday, I'll hunt up some reference links.
In the meantime... in 1845 (or something), workers excavating a tomb in Egypt found a giant pot of honey, which smelled & tasted like regular honey. Being hungry, they ate up..and found the body of a perfectly preserved baby at the bottom of the jar. Honey is so sugary it is a wonderful preservative, again for the fact that sugar absorbs water & effects water potential.

 

[rclouse79]

All the comments about their guts being stronger are interesting. Half the stuff my dog eats would put me in the ER. I never stopped to think that a couple thousand years ago a guy could eat goose poop and go on about his day without a second thought.

 

[ozyclint]

With the way things are going I think it wise to stock up on salt, sugar, vinegar, citric acid and a pressure canner. All are vital for preserving foods. Make your own non perishable goods.

 

[robtattoo]

I have always wondered how many people “invented” dynamite before one guy did it without killing himself.

I often wonder how many different animals we tried climbing on before we figured out that horses were cool with it.

 

[KurtR]

One of the easiest recipes I’ve seen that has been used for generations is Machacado.

I know of a plant that slices rounds about 1/8” thick, covers both sides in seas salt. It’s then laid out on screens, cooked to internal temp of 180 deg for the first hour with high humidity(damper closed, water pan on heat source), then reduced to 145 for 12-16 hours.

It’s completely dry at us point, crunchy almost. No additional ingredients used. It’s then shredded like the old kids Jerky Chew junk. This is added it eggs, soups, etc as a protein source.

It’s a fairly easy process, as it lowers the water activity well below the threshold to kill pathogens. Listeria is the main concern in dried meats, so post lethality contact with equipment, tables, cutting boards etc is how that is reintroduced, as it should be reduced to a point safe to eat.

This is shelf stable product, can be kept for a long time without refrigeration.

That jerky chew was the best. Everyone at t ball packing a fat dip and itching your balls like the major leaguers haha. It was fun growing up in the 80’s

 

[Gutshot007]

Have you guys ever seen any of those places that have "aging rooms"for meat in high dollar steak houses in New York city? They have their own "recipes" for controlled rot that gives their meat a distinct flavor. Its serious business. I've seen prettier roadkill. One of the best and most expensive steaks I've ever had was in Hawaii. It was well aged. I guess once you trim off the funk layer it's pretty dang good.

 

[Gutshot007]

Mentioned above honey and vinegar. Mayo clinic at one time was using diluted vinegar to clean chronic wounds and purified honey over the wound when done.