How did ancient / native people not get botulism from smoking?

[anotherusename1234]

People have always smoked meat to preserve, example the natives / indians in north america to create a jerky. Smoking can create anaerobic environment in the "danger zone" for bacteria. They did not have fancy ovens, temperature gauge , timers or nitrates. How did they not get botulism? What did they do differently?

Did they maybe smoke it until it was very dry, then add more heat to "kill off" any potential botulism that could have growed? The temps im seeing are 175f for 5 mins to denature the toxins the spores create.

 

[Moserkr]

Just may be one of best newbie posts Ive seen here. Welcome. I have no clue to your question but Im curious now too.

 

[sneaky]

They had a much stronger gut biome than we do because sugar, artificial flavorings and preservatives hadn't destroyed it. I bet they didn't have as many allergies and intolerances as we do either. I'm sure trial and error came into play, someone probably took one for the team. Necessity is the mother of invention.

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[CorbLand]

I'm sure trial and error came into play, someone probably took one for the team.

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I have always wondered how many people “invented” dynamite before one guy did it without killing himself.

 

[aaronoto]

Possibly saltpeter? It’s been around and has been used as an antimicrobial in meat for thousands of years. Botulism also requires a lack of oxygen, so I think risk is fairly low in a muscle cut smoked/dried jerky, especially if the moisture content was also pretty low. If they were making sausage way back in the day, then I’m not sure…

 

[anotherusename1234]

Possibly saltpeter? It’s been around and has been used as an antimicrobial in meat for thousands of years. Botulism also requires a lack of oxygen, so I think risk is fairly low in a muscle cut smoked/dried jerky, especially if the moisture content was also pretty low. If they were making sausage way back in the day, then I’m not sure…

Sure, saltpeter (salt with nitrates) were used in some areas, in fact (from my understanding) salt from certain salt mines / areas contained saltpeter naturally (Chile saltpetre) but the ancients did not know the difference and just assumed the salt from "this" area was better quality.

Civilizations like rome, greece, etc used salt to preserve meat, even not that long ago the colonials in america had salt pork, wood barrels packed with pork and salt, then topped off with brine to seal - up to 10% of the contents was salt alone. I actually dont know how this would prevent botulism either, this salted pork creates moisture, hospitable temperature, time and the salt is pure salt, not nitrates / nitrite which would kill botulism. From my understanding salt doesn't kill botulism, from the sources I read it just "doesnt like it" same as sugar which is very vague and unclear. Does a certain salt content retard growth? Kill the toxin? At what salt content? I am unsure. If anyone knows, please share.

But my main question of this post does not regard salt, Salt was an expensive commodity and in most scenarios of human history not used. Natives would sun dry their meat or smoke it over the fire to dry and preserve. I want to know how they smoked it without developing botulism. So far Im guessing they just smoked it a lot hotter so it was smoked to dry and cooked at the same time.

 

[Tod osier]

People have always smoked meat to preserve, example the natives / indians in north america to create a jerky. Smoking can create anaerobic environment in the "danger zone" for bacteria. They did not have fancy ovens, temperature gauge , timers or nitrates. How did they not get botulism? What did they do differently?

Did they maybe smoke it until it was very dry, then add more heat to "kill off" any potential botulism that could have growed? The temps im seeing are 175f for 5 mins to denature the toxins the spores create.

First, I’d say, because there isn’t a whole lot of risk in the first place. Cases of botulism in meat are limited to really rare / odd meat prep methods. For typical western / north american food products, I do not know of a case. Meat strips dry quickly and are low risk.

I don't use nitrates in jerky and it isn't the slightest concern for me, but it is for some people. For things like meat sticks, I use nitrates, but that is mostly for other reasons than botulism. For cured sausages, I absolutely use nitrates.

I don't know that they were curing whole hams without salt or nitrates. You need salt for that at a minimum, botulism isn't the worry there, rot is.

With the danger zone and smoking, that is for other food borne pathogens as well.

With the ability to easily denature the toxin by cooking, you can have as much in the meat as you want and then just boil it and it is safe, so you have that backup if there is a concern.

Finally, people probably died of eating bad food all the time.

 

[Tod osier]

Civilizations like rome, greece, etc used salt to preserve meat, even not that long ago the colonials in america had salt pork, wood barrels packed with pork and salt, then topped off with brine to seal - up to 10% of the contents was salt alone. I actually dont know how this would prevent botulism either, this salted pork creates moisture, hospitable temperature, time and the salt is pure salt, not nitrates / nitrite which would kill botulism. From my understanding salt doesn't kill botulism, from the sources I read it just "doesnt like it" same as sugar which is very vague and unclear. Does a certain salt content retard growth? Kill the toxin? At what salt content? I am unsure. If anyone knows, please share.

The botulism organism is inhibited by salt, low moisture, acidity and nitrates and combinations of those. If the conditions are made such that growth can't occur, the toxin won't be produced. There is ample reading on what levels inhibit its growth, you just have to look, I've read a lot of the subject, but I'm not able to point you to specific sources. Following accepted techniques is the easiest way to keep yourself safe.

 

[Tod osier]

They had a much stronger gut biome than we do because sugar, artificial flavorings and preservatives hadn't destroyed it. I bet they didn't have as many allergies and intolerances as we do either. I'm sure trial and error came into play, someone probably took one for the team. Necessity is the mother of invention.

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True for food borne pathogens. For botulism, it is a toxin in the food that is the problem, not the living organism, your gut microbiome isn't helping you there as far as I understand.

 

[Tod osier]

This is interesting reading from the CDC.

Alaska Native Foods | Botulism | CDC

human botulism, Clostridium botulinum, C botulinum, CB toxin, botulinum toxin, neuroparalysis, neurotoxin, food-borne botulism, FBB, wound botulism, WB

www.cdc.gov

 

[kda082]

I remember a story on Comanches where they killed bison calves, ate the curdled milk in intestines, and forced white prisoners to do the same. The captives puked and were forced to keep eating until They held it down, I assume their guts were far more resilient than ours.

 

[grfox92]

They had a stronger gut and could withstand much more. They also ate a ton of raw meat.

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[Nickofthewoods]

Does uv from sun drying help reduce botulism risk? That would be my guess, I doubt many people today sun dry after they smoke or dehydrate jerky because we have the thermometers and exact guidelines to follow for avoiding food born illnesses.

 

[Tod osier]

Does uv from sun drying help reduce botulism risk? That would be my guess, I doubt many people today sun dry after they smoke or dehydrate jerky because we have the thermometers and exact guidelines to follow for avoiding food born illnesses.

Botulism only grows in anaerobic conditions, which has to be inside the meat. If there is contact with air, it can't grow, UV does not penetrate very deeply into something like meat, so I'd guess there isn't much impact of UV.

 

[FLATHEAD]

They didnt need Baby Formula either.
Yet here we are.

 

[Gutshot007]

Probably used vacuum sealers and then stored it in cold clean flowing rivers would be my guess.

 

[FLATHEAD]

I was always amazed that Andrew Zimmern eating all those weird,
raw, rancid, foods didnt end up in the hospital.

 

[Revolting Peasant]

Low fat meat, sliced thinner to get the moisture out as fast as possible. Once dry, less chance of bacterial growth. Works best in dry climates. Not so much in the swamp.

 

[fmyth]

They didnt need Baby Formula either.
Yet here we are.

They also had an infant mortality rate 5-6 times greater than we have today.

Mortality in the past: every second child died

The chances that a newborn survives childhood have increased from 50% to 96% globally. This article asks how we know about the mortality of children in the past and what we can learn from it for our future.

ourworldindata.org

 

[FLATHEAD]

But it wasnt from lack of Baby Formula.