Holy moly I'm outta shape.

[Shrek]

After two back surgeries for herniated discs I wouldn't dream of doing situps and the thousands of situps I did with a 45lb plate on my chest probably had a lot to do with my back trouble. Seriously , situps are hell on your back and when your back goes so do a lot of things you loved to do. A couple of things I wished I'd have skipped when I was younger are jogging , situps , and heavy weights. None of those three did anything good for my long term health. It will catch up with you.

 

[307]

Right, but why do something in training that is guaranteed to cause some harm, however miniscule, to a tissue that has almost no ability to repair itself? The real kicker is that sit-ups are non-functional. We are not designed to create movement with our trunks. The trunk is best utilized as a lever or short term stiff spring to transfer power from the ball and socket joints (most importantly, the hips). So we have a movement that damages the back and is non functional...

Some spines can tolerate much higher numbers of flexion/extension cycles. A thin, flexible spine would qualify (think dancer, golfer, etc.). Other spines, thicker, more robust and tolerant to higher axial loads/forces will break down much, much sooner under the exact same type and number of loaded flexion/extension cycles. Very few people will know what type of spine they have so it's just a game of Russian roulette...

 

[rhendrix]

307, just so you're aware, this is the version of the sit-up I was doing.

http://youtu.be/3HYysQVYB4A

Is there repeated flexion and extension of the lumbar spine, yes. Is it as damaging as a normal sit-up due to the concentric phase being shortened, probably not.

Either way, I did THIRTY of them.

 

[307]

Ok, 307 is right that sit-ups do put unnesasary strain on the back and is unhealthy to a certain extent. With that said my grandfather did who knows ... 300 thousand sit ups while in the military. He is 86 now and he just built his house last year with the help of my father and I. So doing a few is not going to kill you. There is also a difference between acute and chronic injuries. It's unfair to say that sit ups are the sole reason for the degradation of people's lower backs, there is to many unknown factors in people's everyday life, improper lifting, lack of exercise and the fact that more and more people are sitting at a computer for 8 hours a day without proper lumbar support.

I've seen more people that are injured doing squats or deadlifts improperly then anything else.

The reason lower back pain is a leader in disability is people are lazy, fat and it is extremely difficult to prove people don't suffer from severe back pain.

It's a difficult thing to figure out, what really caused the back injury? The long term degrade or the traumatic instantaneous injury.

Anecdote is not helpful in this discussion. Your grandfather, my cousin, the neighbor next door... A person may blindfold themselves and sprint across 7 lanes of interstate at the height of rush hour and make it all the way across. That doesn't make it reproducible, nor a good idea.

I never claimed that sit ups are the sole reason for lumbar disc degeneration. I am fully aware of the myriad of factors that influence low back health.

Acute injures are set up by tissue pathology from long term motor control and tissue stress patterns. A pristine disc is incredibly strong/durable. Vertebra will fracture before healthy discs will herniate in many trauma situations.

People's beliefs about how or why their backs hurt are the stuff of many wives tales but when clear science exists, I feel it is irresponsible to muddy the waters with anecdotal mumbo jumbo.

 

[rhendrix]

As for being non-functional, ever tried to stand up with a heavy pack on from a sitting position?

 

[307]

307, just so you're aware, this is the version of the sit-up I was doing.

http://youtu.be/3HYysQVYB4A

Is there repeated flexion and extension of the lumbar spine, yes. Is it as damaging as a normal sit-up due to the concentric phase being shortened, probably not.

Either way, I did THIRTY of them.

How exactly is the concentric phase being shortened? I don't see anything different from a traditional sit up. Intradiscal pressures would likely be the same or higher due to lessened ability of the hip flexors to help achieve the desired movement.

 

[307]

I'll look up and post some data tomorrow on the various MEASURED forces in the disc. They aren't what you'd think. For example, a hanging knee raise has the same pressures as a sit up... That one surprised me.

 

[307]

Lol... And I seriously suck at refraining from further comment... I appreciate when people share their expertise, backed by training, education, and experience on this board. I've learned a lot so I feel like I should share when it's something in my "strike zone".

 

[rhendrix]

Try doing one and see for yourself. The movement isn't initiated in your hips like a traditional sit-up, instead you engage almost your entire posterior chain, with the exception of maybe your glutes. I don't have access to an EMG, but I'm willing to bet you're spinal erectors are less engaged as well.

Looking forward to whatever data you may present.

 

[rhendrix]

Lol... And I seriously suck at refraining from further comment... I appreciate when people share their expertise, backed by training, education, and experience on this board. I've learned a lot so I feel like I should share when it's something in my "strike zone".

I'm not worried about it, if this is your bread and butter I welcome your input. Especially if you have the data to back it up.

 

[Ironman8]

I can't claim that 307 or Rhendrix is "right" because I really don't know. With a baseball career that spanned through college, Lord knows I did a ton of sit-ups. It does sound like 307 has some extensive knowledge in this area, so I'm at least interested in seeing his proof.

That said, over the years I've come to train differently. I don't do sit-ups anymore mostly because sit-ups really aren't the best way to train for a stronger core. Squats and deadlifts (and other exercises) will do way more in that regard. Also, if you want a 6-pack, sit-ups won't get you there either as that is 100% diet related.

 

[307]

The traditional sit-up imposes approximately 3300 N (about 730 lb) of compression on the spine. In laboratory testing, the mechanism of movement that consistently produces disc herniation is repeated flexion/extension cycles under compression. IOW, a sit-up.

It's not that the spine cannot tolerate the compression, it can if in a neutral position and properly braced, but in a flexed position and especially during movement, that level of compression will be damaging the vast majority of the time.

The inner 2/3 of the annulus fibrosis is not innervated for pain so the fact that nothing hurts is not an indication that there is no damage being done.

Info from Low Back Disorders, Dr. Stuart McGill.

 

[tipsntails7]

Anecdote is not helpful in this discussion. Your grandfather, my cousin, the neighbor next door... A person may blindfold themselves and sprint across 7 lanes of interstate at the height of rush hour and make it all the way across. That doesn't make it reproducible, nor a good idea.

I never claimed that sit ups are the sole reason for lumbar disc degeneration. I am fully aware of the myriad of factors that influence low back health.

Acute injures are set up by tissue pathology from long term motor control and tissue stress patterns. A pristine disc is incredibly strong/durable. Vertebra will fracture before healthy discs will herniate in many trauma situations.

People's beliefs about how or why their backs hurt are the stuff of many wives tales but when clear science exists, I feel it is irresponsible to muddy the waters with anecdotal mumbo jumbo.

You realize I said that you were right?? All I was saying is just because you do a couple sit-ups now and then does not mean your back is messed up forever. Clearly this your area of expertise. All I meant by my statement is sit-ups are not the end of the world.

 

[307]

You realize I said that you were right?? All I was saying is just because you do a couple sit-ups now and then does not mean your back is messed up forever. Clearly this your area of expertise. All I meant by my statement is sit-ups are not the end of the world.

I'm not disagreeing with you. The scary part is when we don't know how many cycles our disc can tolerate, nor how many we have already used in our lifetimes. The consensus among spine rehab people is to utilize spine sparing strategies at all times, knowing that we'll never be perfect at it, and hope our tissue luck holds out.

I've never said that 30 sit ups is going to kill anyone. I did say that sit-ups are a bad idea in terms of back health.

 

[307]

Also, just as a PSA for rokslide, be especially cautious with lumbar bending for the first hour after rising in the morning. Discs are more hydrated after being non weight bearing during sleep, there is more internal hydraulic pressure because of the extra fluid inside the disc and the disc is more prone to damage during that time.

So, if you really, really want to trash a disc, do a bunch of sit ups first thing after you get out of bed in the morning... Then sit in a chair all day and follow it up with some round back deadlifts and throw in some heavy spine rotational work. It'll work every time...

 

[Poser]

Seems to happen more in females who are obsessed with flat stomachs or, it could just be more apparent in the female anatomy, but sometimes you will notice fit looking girls who have the posterior shift (walking with their hips forwards) from doing too many sit ups. -seems to be most apparent in collegiate and competition cheerleaders.

 

[Jdog]

dang...I eat situps for breakfast...I'm screwed!

 

[tipsntails7]

I'm not disagreeing with you. The scary part is when we don't know how many cycles our disc can tolerate, nor how many we have already used in our lifetimes. The consensus among spine rehab people is to utilize spine sparing strategies at all times, knowing that we'll never be perfect at it, and hope our tissue luck holds out.

I've never said that 30 sit ups is going to kill anyone. I did say that sit-ups are a bad idea in terms of back health.

That right there is actually a pretty good point. Kinda like pitchers and so many bullets in their arm. Makes sense.

 

[njdoxie]

Then what are the recommended exercises for keeping stomach muscles tight? I already do deadlifts and legs raises....but abs aren't as tight as I would like.....even if I had 2% fat I wouldn't have flat abs

 

[307]

What do you mean by "tight"? Fat reduction? Strength? Endurance?