High POI when shooting up hill?

[TimberHunter]

Over the last few months I’ve started to notice the trend that if the target is say over 600 yards and up hill (+-20 degrees or more), if I miss I nearly always miss high. Same distance with little to no incline, elevation misses aren’t an issue

This has been observed over 8-10 range trips in the last few months. I’m not sure it’s a thermal issue because I’ve shot in the AM, PM and middle of the day.

My rifles are factory tikkas with vertical grips and suppressed. Rifle I see it the most with is my 6.5cm (largest rifle I consistently shoot lol).

Due to the incline and only having so much height to my bipod/backpack, the butt of the rifle is sitting low on my shoulder on this incline shots.

Due to less shoulder/butt of stock engagement, I’m wondering if the recoil is enough to push the butt of the rifle down, resulting in high impacts? Maybe the angled toe of the tikka stock also creates this issue compared to a Rokstok?


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[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Are you dialing for straight line or angle compensated? If you are just using straight line distance missing high makes complete sense, the bullet is only affected by the horizontal distance so you'd be dialing too much correction. IE think of a triangle, the bottom length is what matters for drop calculations not the diagonal distance.

 

[TimberHunter]

Are you dialing for straight line or angle compensated? If you are just using straight line distance missing high makes complete sense, the bullet is only affected by the horizontal distance so you'd be dialing too much correction. IE think of a triangle, the bottom length is what matters for drop calculations not the diagonal distance.

Great point. I am using an sig range finder with angle compensation built into it


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[hereinaz]

100% yes

Excellent observations. Not many shoot enough to see it, and realize that it isn’t always wind.

Gear can help with high angle shooting. Technique has the bigger effect, as with most shooting improvements.

POI moving up is a function of the effect of recoil in a new gravitational situation. Angles create changes in the force/movement equation so that recoil exploits the reduction in downward energy/inertia of gravity on the barrel as it pivots up compared to the action.

Think about it in relation to leverage and center of gravity. As that changes, it requires much less force to move the muzzle “up” in relation to POA vs POI.

If you don’t control recoil consistently, the POI changes. Better gear can mitigate the effects. But, it will take learning recoil management in different circumstances.

Learning recoil management and building positions will improve shooting at all ranges.

 

[hereinaz]

Are you dialing for straight line or angle compensated? If you are just using straight line distance missing high makes complete sense, the bullet is only affected by the horizontal distance so you'd be dialing too much correction. IE think of a triangle, the bottom length is what matters for drop calculations not the diagonal distance.

Angle compensation is one potential for error, depends on distance and velocity. If that is eliminated I still see misses high at 20 degree and higher angles.

Here is dope for a 6.5 creed shorty barrel. 0 and 25 degrees, and difference is almost 4 tenths at 500 yards. In contrast my 6 PRC at 500 is a tenth.

 

[TimberHunter]

100% yes

Excellent observations. Not many shoot enough to see it, and realize that it isn’t always wind.

Gear can help with high angle shooting. Technique has the bigger effect, as with most shooting improvements.

POI moving up is a function of the effect of recoil in a new gravitational situation. Angles create changes in the force/movement equation so that recoil exploits the reduction in downward energy/inertia of gravity on the barrel as it pivots up compared to the action.

Think about it in relation to leverage and center of gravity. As that changes, it requires much less force to move the muzzle “up” in relation to POA vs POI.

If you don’t control recoil consistently, the POI changes. Better gear can mitigate the effects. But, it will take learning recoil management in different circumstances.

Learning recoil management and building positions will improve shooting at all ranges.

How does one better mange the recoil when rifle is on an incline?

My first thought is to raise the front of the rifle higher so the butt sits higher/more natural on the shoulder but I’ve gotten mixed results


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[TimberHunter]

Angle compensation is one potential for error, depends on distance and velocity. If that is eliminated I still see misses high at 20 degree and higher angles.

Here is dope for a 6.5 creed shorty barrel. 0 and 25 degrees, and difference is almost 4 tenths at 500 yards. In contrast my 6 PRC at 500 is a tenth.

View attachment 977341View attachment 977342

I don’t think the answer is this simple but I want to clarify… I found an area to input angle into the shooter app. At 600 with 25 degrees with my slow 6.5cm it calls for .6 mil less compared to 0 degree.

If I’m using an angle compensation range finder, I should leave the angle in the shooter app at zero correct? This is how I’ve been doing it thusfar


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[Megalodon]

I highly doubt it is all attributable to recoil management if you have a base line of fundamentals.

I’ve listened to a few podcasts over the years about high angle shooting and the gist was that all of the range finder manufacturers handle angle compensation a little differently and none are perfect. It’s something that has to be trued to your situation through field results, similar to truing dope.

 

[The Guide]

Angle isn't as critical as most think until you get to 20⁰ or more and distances past 500 yards. On some quick calculations, my 22 ARC @ 700 yards is -0.1 Mil @ 10⁰, -0.2 Mil @ 15⁰, and -0.3 Mil @ 20⁰. 20⁰ is a pretty steep angle in reality. My 6.5 Creedmoor and 7mm Backcountry both follow the same trend with the 6.5 CM being -0.4 Mil @ 20⁰.

Body position and recoil control is more likely to give you issues due to the butt stock slipping down during the recoil impulse. I find myself missing high/hitting high if the butt stock slips down at all during recoil. For this reason, I try and control the butt stock with my non trigger hand with either a rear bag or while gripping my bino harness strap. Good control of the rear of the rifle helps keep you in the scope and improves your follow through.

Jay

 

[The Guide]

I don’t think the answer is this simple but I want to clarify… I found an area to input angle into the shooter app. At 600 with 25 degrees with my slow 6.5cm it calls for .6 mil less compared to 0 degree.

If I’m using an angle compensation range finder, I should leave the angle in the shooter app at zero correct? This is how I’ve been doing it thusfar


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The only time I use angle compensation is when I'm getting my dope from my rangefinder or if I am archery hunting. Otherwise, I use Line Of Sight (LOS) measurements and calculate angle using my phone (shooter will allow you to use the gyroscope in your phone to take the angle reading) while in my Ballistic calculator. If you trust your rangefinder to give you the shoot to distance (angle compensated) then you would leave your shot angle at 0 and just dial to the corrected distance.

Jay

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Angle isn't as critical as most think until you get to 20⁰ or more and distances past 500 yards.

He said 20deg and 600yd in his case so I asked about the angle part cause as you've noted in those conditions it has relevance.

@TimberHunter how much are you missing by? Is it the magnitude of the angle comp we are mentioning? Is it consistent? IE if you see you're .5mil high (for example) and dial down .5mil do you then hit the target consistently?

 

[The Guide]

He said 20deg and 600yd in his case so I asked about the angle part cause as you've noted in those conditions it has relevance.

I didn't see any firm numbers when he first posted. Might have read over them. I just wanted to bring up the fact that shots at distance @ greater than 20⁰ are generally rare unless purposely set up that way. But when you do find yourself in a situation with great angle at distance, you need to add that into your calculations for your firing solution.

Jay

 

[mtnbound]

I don’t think the answer is this simple but I want to clarify… I found an area to input angle into the shooter app. At 600 with 25 degrees with my slow 6.5cm it calls for .6 mil less compared to 0 degree.

If I’m using an angle compensation range finder, I should leave the angle in the shooter app at zero correct? This is how I’ve been doing it thusfar


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Confirming when you use the angle compensation distance/dial from your RF' you are missing high? What is your RF compensated distance/dial compared to the distance/dial when you add in the Angle to Shooter?

 

[hereinaz]

He said 20deg and 600yd in his case so I asked about the angle part cause as you've noted in those conditions it has relevance.

@TimberHunter how much are you missing by? Is it the magnitude of the angle comp we are mentioning? Is it consistent? IE if you see you're .5mil high (for example) and dial down .5mil do you then hit the target consistently?

He said “if I miss, I miss high” so I assumed we were talking about the misses. I also assumed he was actually hitting the plate so dope was not directly involved in the first place. He is also returning to the same location and targets if I understand correctly, when he said range trips.

Always lots of assumptions go into it. I could be wrong.

Recoil management is going to increase vertical dispersion, and more so at distance.

I say recoil management, because it captures everything we do to control the rifle. And, if he builds the position poorly, which the compromised position he describes falls into it, the vertical angle will affect it gravitationally and positionally.

I have played with the effect of angles by changing from a rifle resting on a bag to rifle clamped in a tripod, and my experience of limited sample led me to believe that it is for what I described. The weight and leverage of the rifle changes and it moves differently. We have to accommodate for it.

Form would just say, we suck as shooters, and that is most right, lol. Practice it and the vertical dispersion and misses will go an away.

It is not the only thing, but learning how recoil is different at high angles is part of shooting better. Think of how much time is wasted trying to find the gear or screwing with data when our suck level is so high.

High angle shots rare? I guess it depends on the location, cause high angle shots have been a regular thing in AZ.

I highly doubt it is all attributable to recoil management if you have a base line of fundamentals.

I’ve listened to a few podcasts over the years about high angle shooting and the gist was that all of the range finder manufacturers handle angle compensation a little differently and none are perfect. It’s something that has to be trued to your situation through field results, similar to truing dope.

This is true about the different calculations, which is why I use the AB system and rangefinder that feeds the data and separate temperature sensor.

Also, one reason for doping the rifle/situation, besides the maths, is the difference in shooting position.

 

[Flatgo]

I would bet it is how you are taking into account the angle. angle modified range is not valid after a certain slope and yardages passed 500. You need to run the scenerio through a ballistic calculator and I do not think all correctly calculate this. I have had good luck with ballistic AE and Revic calculators.

in general angle modified range funs all the calculations as if say you were shooting 600 and due to the angle you only shoot 500 based on the horizontal distance. where this falls flat is you bullet still needs to travel 600 and will slow down over that distance. not mentions a ton of other factors including gravity deceleration,wind, and magnification of scope relation to barrel center line. Angle shots are way more complicated than given credit too, but i would bet you are not compensating correctly in your ballistic calculator.

 

[mtnbound]

I was shooting my 223 trainer the other day at 600 yards with a 20-degree angle off my pack with a rear bag. I added the angle into Shooter; there was a .4 mil reduction at that distance/angle.

Building and maintaining a good position was difficult, as I consistently got 3 hits out of 4 shots, with the second or third shot being my miss.

 

[hereinaz]

I would bet it is how you are taking into account the angle. angle modified range is not valid after a certain slope and yardages passed 500. You need to run the scenerio through a ballistic calculator and I do not think all correctly calculate this. I have had good luck with ballistic AE and Revic calculators.

in general angle modified range funs all the calculations as if say you were shooting 600 and due to the angle you only shoot 500 based on the horizontal distance. where this falls flat is you bullet still needs to travel 600 and will slow down over that distance. not mentions a ton of other factors including gravity deceleration,wind, and magnification of scope relation to barrel center line. Angle shots are way more complicated than given credit too, but i would bet you are not compensating correctly in your ballistic calculator.

I don’t understand the way you describe the angle compensation.

Angle compensation should be a straight up calculation. It gives you the actual horizontal distance the laser travels.

Ballistic calculations are based upon the many things, but inside 600 using angle compensated for elevation is good enough. But, you can’t use the wind call in the app.

 

[hereinaz]

As a side note, the difficulty of getting into a position for angles shots is another reason why I just went 99% tripod shooting for long range. I can keep it consistent and I don’t have to lay down and get in contorted positions.

Going to consistent positions relative to the tripod is one thing that led me to my belief. I saw the difference in angled shots. Adding ballast to weigh the tripod down reduced vertical dispersion on angled shots. On flat shots, it just reduced groups over all.

And, when I make a mistake in flat, I get way more random dispersion. Mistakes at angle starts to stretch up.

Could just be me and I am way off…

 

[Megalodon]

I would bet it is how you are taking into account the angle. angle modified range is not valid after a certain slope and yardages passed 500. You need to run the scenerio through a ballistic calculator and I do not think all correctly calculate this. I have had good luck with ballistic AE and Revic calculators.

in general angle modified range funs all the calculations as if say you were shooting 600 and due to the angle you only shoot 500 based on the horizontal distance. where this falls flat is you bullet still needs to travel 600 and will slow down over that distance. not mentions a ton of other factors including gravity deceleration,wind, and magnification of scope relation to barrel center line. Angle shots are way more complicated than given credit too, but i would bet you are not compensating correctly in your ballistic calculator.

Thank you. This is the answer… instead of bickering back and forth about shooting position. Smfh.

 

[hereinaz]

Thank you. This is the answer… instead of bickering back and forth about shooting position. Smfh.

If you are in AZ, come show me how you like to shoot high angle stuff. I will pay for ammo and gas to meet up.