High POI when shooting up hill?

[TimberHunter]

Over the last few months I’ve started to notice the trend that if the target is say over 600 yards and up hill (+-20 degrees or more), if I miss I nearly always miss high. Same distance with little to no incline, elevation misses aren’t an issue

This has been observed over 8-10 range trips in the last few months. I’m not sure it’s a thermal issue because I’ve shot in the AM, PM and middle of the day.

My rifles are factory tikkas with vertical grips and suppressed. Rifle I see it the most with is my 6.5cm (largest rifle I consistently shoot lol).

Due to the incline and only having so much height to my bipod/backpack, the butt of the rifle is sitting low on my shoulder on this incline shots.

Due to less shoulder/butt of stock engagement, I’m wondering if the recoil is enough to push the butt of the rifle down, resulting in high impacts? Maybe the angled toe of the tikka stock also creates this issue compared to a Rokstok?


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[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Are you dialing for straight line or angle compensated? If you are just using straight line distance missing high makes complete sense, the bullet is only affected by the horizontal distance so you'd be dialing too much correction. IE think of a triangle, the bottom length is what matters for drop calculations not the diagonal distance.

 

[TimberHunter]

Are you dialing for straight line or angle compensated? If you are just using straight line distance missing high makes complete sense, the bullet is only affected by the horizontal distance so you'd be dialing too much correction. IE think of a triangle, the bottom length is what matters for drop calculations not the diagonal distance.

Great point. I am using an sig range finder with angle compensation built into it


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[hereinaz]

100% yes

Excellent observations. Not many shoot enough to see it, and realize that it isn’t always wind.

Gear can help with high angle shooting. Technique has the bigger effect, as with most shooting improvements.

POI moving up is a function of the effect of recoil in a new gravitational situation. Angles create changes in the force/movement equation so that recoil exploits the reduction in downward energy/inertia of gravity on the barrel as it pivots up compared to the action.

Think about it in relation to leverage and center of gravity. As that changes, it requires much less force to move the muzzle “up” in relation to POA vs POI.

If you don’t control recoil consistently, the POI changes. Better gear can mitigate the effects. But, it will take learning recoil management in different circumstances.

Learning recoil management and building positions will improve shooting at all ranges.

 

[hereinaz]

Are you dialing for straight line or angle compensated? If you are just using straight line distance missing high makes complete sense, the bullet is only affected by the horizontal distance so you'd be dialing too much correction. IE think of a triangle, the bottom length is what matters for drop calculations not the diagonal distance.

Angle compensation is one potential for error, depends on distance and velocity. If that is eliminated I still see misses high at 20 degree and higher angles.

Here is dope for a 6.5 creed shorty barrel. 0 and 25 degrees, and difference is almost 4 tenths at 500 yards. In contrast my 6 PRC at 500 is a tenth.

 

[TimberHunter]

100% yes

Excellent observations. Not many shoot enough to see it, and realize that it isn’t always wind.

Gear can help with high angle shooting. Technique has the bigger effect, as with most shooting improvements.

POI moving up is a function of the effect of recoil in a new gravitational situation. Angles create changes in the force/movement equation so that recoil exploits the reduction in downward energy/inertia of gravity on the barrel as it pivots up compared to the action.

Think about it in relation to leverage and center of gravity. As that changes, it requires much less force to move the muzzle “up” in relation to POA vs POI.

If you don’t control recoil consistently, the POI changes. Better gear can mitigate the effects. But, it will take learning recoil management in different circumstances.

Learning recoil management and building positions will improve shooting at all ranges.

How does one better mange the recoil when rifle is on an incline?

My first thought is to raise the front of the rifle higher so the butt sits higher/more natural on the shoulder but I’ve gotten mixed results


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[TimberHunter]

Angle compensation is one potential for error, depends on distance and velocity. If that is eliminated I still see misses high at 20 degree and higher angles.

Here is dope for a 6.5 creed shorty barrel. 0 and 25 degrees, and difference is almost 4 tenths at 500 yards. In contrast my 6 PRC at 500 is a tenth.

View attachment 977341View attachment 977342

I don’t think the answer is this simple but I want to clarify… I found an area to input angle into the shooter app. At 600 with 25 degrees with my slow 6.5cm it calls for .6 mil less compared to 0 degree.

If I’m using an angle compensation range finder, I should leave the angle in the shooter app at zero correct? This is how I’ve been doing it thusfar


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[Megalodon]

I highly doubt it is all attributable to recoil management if you have a base line of fundamentals.

I’ve listened to a few podcasts over the years about high angle shooting and the gist was that all of the range finder manufacturers handle angle compensation a little differently and none are perfect. It’s something that has to be trued to your situation through field results, similar to truing dope.

 

[The Guide]

Angle isn't as critical as most think until you get to 20⁰ or more and distances past 500 yards. On some quick calculations, my 22 ARC @ 700 yards is -0.1 Mil @ 10⁰, -0.2 Mil @ 15⁰, and -0.3 Mil @ 20⁰. 20⁰ is a pretty steep angle in reality. My 6.5 Creedmoor and 7mm Backcountry both follow the same trend with the 6.5 CM being -0.4 Mil @ 20⁰.

Body position and recoil control is more likely to give you issues due to the butt stock slipping down during the recoil impulse. I find myself missing high/hitting high if the butt stock slips down at all during recoil. For this reason, I try and control the butt stock with my non trigger hand with either a rear bag or while gripping my bino harness strap. Good control of the rear of the rifle helps keep you in the scope and improves your follow through.

Jay