Help w Rifle Inaccuracy

[nobody]

A bull barrel doesn't hold true in a longer string of shots they a thin contour?

If both barrels are appropriately manufactured and stress relieved, you won't see a difference in performance. It's not a steel composition thing, it's a fabrication process thing. The bull barrel makes a difference if neither barrel is properly manufactured and stress relieved, but if both barrels are built the way they should be, you won't see any appreciable difference in group sizes, assuming all else is held constant.

 

[2-Stix]

If both barrels are appropriately manufactured and stress relieved, you won't see a difference in performance. It's not a steel composition thing, it's a fabrication process thing. The bull barrel makes a difference if neither barrel is properly manufactured and stress relieved, but if both barrels are built the way they should be, you won't see any appreciable difference in group sizes, assuming all else is held constant.

Yes. Mine is just ss. A thin barrel vs a heavy barrel I read and would think will deal with expansion contraction sooner when a barrel heats up.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Yes. Mine is just ss. A thin barrel vs a heavy barrel I read and would think will deal with expansion contraction sooner when a barrel heats up.

That's not how thermal expansion works. It's a change in dimension based on a change in temp. The % of the change will be constant, but the larger the piece of metal the larger the measured change in dimension will be for an identical temperature change.

Thermal expansion - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[nobody]

Yes. Mine is just ss. A thin barrel vs a heavy barrel I read and would think will deal with expansion contraction sooner when a barrel heats up.

Nope, shouldn't make a difference. Thin, heavy, or painted like a leopard, it's all the same. The manufacturing techniques are what matters. Tikka and Sako typically are not problem children, and if yours is, it's an anomaly.

 

[2-Stix]

Nope, shouldn't make a difference. Thin, heavy, or painted like a leopard, it's all the same. The manufacturing techniques are what matters. Tikka and Sako typically are not problem children, and if yours is, it's an anomaly.

Understood. Looking like its a scope issue after 3 days of brush hunting and dragging it around on my hands and knees packing a buck out, then 6 days of riding in the truck on dirt roads & hiking around hunting the zero didn't hold. But my groups still opened up. I will run a 10 group test in the next few weeks and see where its at.

 

[Boonie327]

No. Stop reading wherever you read that from. The steel doesn’t walk. Sako/Tikka barrels will group inside their cone nearly until they start to glow. Mirage off a barrel can cause group issues. However it will be generally vertical.

You have said repeatedly that good stress relieved barrels won't open up beyond their cone when they're hot. I am assuming that the hammer forging of the sako/tikka barrels ensure this in their case, but what do you recommend for non-hammer forged barrels? Do most barrel makers do a pretty good job stress relieving their barrels after they button rifle them or do you recommend cut rifled barrels? Any barrel suppliers you recommend more than others based on this?

 

[JGRaider]

Nope, shouldn't make a difference. Thin, heavy, or painted like a leopard, it's all the same. The manufacturing techniques are what matters. Tikka and Sako typically are not problem children, and if yours is, it's an anomaly.

Agree. If/when I have a known shooter open up like that, I go back to start at the start. Check mounts, action screws, bedding, change ammo, etc. and the scope itself before assuming I have a bad barrel, especially a Tikka/Sako model.

 

[nobody]

Agree. If/when I have a known shooter open up like that, I go back to start at the start. Check mounts, action screws, bedding, change ammo, etc. and the scope itself before assuming I have a bad barrel, especially a Tikka/Sako model.

DING DING DING, well put sir!

If a barrel really does "walk" in a vertical fashion, it's got issues. I had a Howa 1500 that would walk vertically after a couple shots, dumped it. The group isn't "opening up" after a couple of shots, all that you're seeing is the rifle's true cone of accuracy. A rifle isn't magically a 3 shot 1/4 MOA system and then all of a sudden is a 1.25 MOA system at shot #4. That's just part of the rifle's cone of accuracy.

In the immortal words of Larry the Cable Guy as Mater from Cars, "I bet my left two lugnuts" the issue lies with the scope and mounts.

 

[Formidilosus]

You have said repeatedly that good stress relieved barrels won't open up beyond their cone when they're hot. I am assuming that the hammer forging of the sako/tikka barrels ensure this in their case, but what do you recommend for non-hammer forged barrels? Do most barrel makers do a pretty good job stress relieving their barrels after they button rifle them or do you recommend cut rifled barrels? Any barrel suppliers you recommend more than others based on this?

Any of the good aftermarket barrels are fine. Cut, button, hammer forged- can all be great barrels.

I’ve used multiple barrels from -

Bartlien
Brux
Kreiger
Lilja
Larue
Hawk Hill
X-Caliber
PRB
Douglas
McGowen
Schneider
Proof

And a bunch more I’m missing. All have shot well, and the only bad barrels I’ve gotten were a Bartlien that had way low barrel life, and multiple carbon wrapped barrels that wouldn’t shoot or were picky. When I get a smith to install a barrel, I let them pick which barrel. They know what I expect (consistent 1 MOA ten round groups at 300 yards), and it’s on them to build it.

None have had stress that caused “walking” when hot- and I mean HOT. When a barrel has stress it will walk- that is, as the barrel heats up the rounds will walk in a line a certain direction. Then as it cools back down the rounds will follow that line back down.
When groups “open up” as a barrel gets warm, it isn’t a bad barrel. You are just seeing the real cone that the group is. The barrel can’t magically know it’s round 4 and not round 3 or round 5.

 

[2-Stix]

Everyone has been very helpful. Great info and I understand the sample of shots for zero, cold bore shot, fouling after a cleaning, and scope issues a HECK of a lot better know. Thank you.

 

[Balderdash]

Don’t buy into the Talley nonsense. Degrease and torque and they’ll work great.

I "buy into" the nonsense. Although, when something is as well documented as this issue, it's not really a matter of belief, it's more acknowledging or denying a fact.

Had cracks as pictured on 2 different top straps and had a bottom portion crack on a different set where the top cap screws are threaded in. That was of about 12 sets I had in service at one point. Some were lapped, others were not. All were torqued to spec with a calibrated torque driver.

I hated that they were egg shaped and some did a number on scope tube finish, so I lapped a couple sets, but found that scopes liked to slide in those when torqued to spec. Consulted with the manufacturer, who stated that the UL rings should not be lapped as the egg shape is/was designed in. Maybe they've gotten better? I'm not likely to find out.

 

[SloppyJ]

I heard a bunch of great things about Talley rings so I bought a set of them for my M70 when I first got it. I chased my tail with that gun. It would shoot great one day and then I would completely miss a deer the next. I still have no idea what the problem was but they didn't fit right from the start. I ditched them and bought some Warne bases and rings and I shot a 0.53" group this weekend with it.

I'd also bet my two left lug nuts that the OP's problem is optic or mount related. I will also say that out of my smaller size, I have not been impressed with Hornady factory ammo. Even their bullets in my reloads to go one step further. I've had one gun out of many that shot well with Hornady and that is a 6.5CM with their cheaper American Whitetail line.

When I started reloading I realized how finicky guns can be with ammo and powder. You need to test 5-10 different rounds before you sell the gun. Hell out of 25 or so different 30-06 handloads, I only have 3 that are sub MOA consistenly. She's a picky girl though.

 

[2-Stix]

I have talleys on 2 rifles...about to be on a third. I have not had issues that I know of...but I appreciate this info and I will keep an eye on it and consider changing.

 

[thegoosano]

Finally got out to test the Swaro X5 and warne rings (I have two kids less than 4yo and a wife who works weekends, so that makes it harder than you’d think to get out ).

Not sure if it was the rings or the scope, but WOW what a difference today. I bore sighted the rifle, then adjusted for zero. Next was a 4 shot group and 3 of the 4 were almost stacked with one about 1.25” low. Adjusted 4 clicks up and one click left and put one almost dead nuts in the center.

I stretched out to 300yds and shot a 3 shot group to finish off the box of ammo. I didn’t adjust for the 5-10mph wind that I had coming at me from about 7o’clock. After rechecking my ballistics I think I should have done one more click up and left, but overall I was really happy with that 300yd group! About a 2” spread at 300yds is more than adequate for me.

Thank you all for your help again. I’m so relieved to be shooting about 1moa. Looking forward to continuing to dial it in and get more data points but things are looking up.

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[Ernie]

Good for you!

 

[ResearchinStuff]

I'm glad it's working now. It will be interesting seeing how that swaro holds up to the vertically split rings for you.

 

[Happy Antelope]

Some guns will never be accurate. I would have said don't do a thing to a Tikka. It's a cheap gun that usually shoots great or perfect out of the box. I have had a 300 dollar Ruger America shot clovers all afternoon and then a min later a 10K gunwerks that was absolute junk. Try some different ammo, etc. Might just be a bad gun. I disagree on the Talley rings, they do a great job, had the rep at Warne tell me they are one of the top rings in the world and always underappreciated. There is reason it's the most common brand on dangerous game rifles with real recoil.

 

[Happy Antelope]

How long do you wait between shots when shooting groups? Those superlite barrels get hot fast. I have a 7RM superlite that I ended up rebuilding into a custom, but the original barrel would get so hot after 2-3 shots that I couldn't even touch it. I also noticed that the barrel shot much better as it got dirtier.

I thought this also....nothing makes a flyer like a hot barrel.

 

[thegoosano]

I thought this also....nothing makes a flyer like a hot barrel.

Sorry good point forgot to mention I was really careful not to shoot any closer than 5min btwn shots. Seemed to work well!


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[9.1]

I was worried we wouldn't get a resolution to this thread. It's nice to see it's shooting better for you.