Help me understand hunting with Berger bullets!

[LightFoot]

My experience is that Hybrids work well when expanding in the thoracic cavity and/or high shoulder at the nerve junction.


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[eoperator]

View attachment 917355

Expand or tumble?

Notice the 2 front ~1/3 of the bullet (middle of pic) tore off with unopened tips recovered from gel.

 

[WeiserBucks]

What about the other two and mine that was recovered from an elk? Tumbling is always possible but far from the rule.

 

[eoperator]

What about the other two and mine that was recovered from an elk? Tumbling is always possible but far from the rule.

The mushroom in the pic (like the one in your hand) was connected to one of the tips in the pic.

 

[WeiserBucks]

The mushroom in the pic (like the one in your hand) was connected to one of the tips in the pic.

You're not wrong. I've seen evidence of tumbling too but to firmly state that they all tumble vs expand is not accurate.

 

[eoperator]

You're not wrong. I've seen evidence of tumbling too but to firmly state that they all tumble vs expand is not accurate.

I would agree with that.

I have called and talked to berger techs 2 times about this subject, they either don't know or more likely do not want to say.

It would be neat to have high speed film to see what happens with otm bullets.

 

[justin davis]

My daughter shot a New Mexico oryx last March with a 156 Berger out of a 6.5 prc. The shot was at 50 yards and very hard quartering away. The Berger preformed perfectly. There was some tiny shrapnel piece exits on the front of the shoulder. There was
No tumbling with this one.

 

[eoperator]

My daughter shot a New Mexico oryx last March with a 156 Berger out of a 6.5 prc. The shot was at 50 yards and very hard quartering away. The Berger preformed perfectly. There was some tiny shrapnel piece exits on the front of the shoulder. There was
No tumbling with this one.

How do you know it did not tumble?

 

[justin davis]

How do you know it did not tumble?

How do you know it did not tumble?

The tiny exits from fragments lead me to believe it didn’t tumble but fragmented. I also couldn’t find the bullet.

 

[eoperator]

The tiny exits from fragments lead me to believe it didn’t tumble but fragmented. I also couldn’t find the bullet.

I don't intend to be argumentive but what if the yaw/tumble is what caused the bullet to open/fragment?


As long as it works does it matter what opens the jacket?

 

[justin davis]

I don't intend to be argumentive but what if the yaw/tumble is what caused the bullet to open/fragment?


As long as it works does it matter what opens the jacket?

Yea you’re definitely right. Defiantly possible. I’m not sure. I’ve just heard people say Berger’s “pencil” thru. But I have had a lot of devastating kills and no exits.

Whatever happens it seems to work well. I’ve used 215 hybrids on elk with good success. And killed antelope and deer with the 108 EH and coyotes and javalena with the 80 grain fullbores.

 

[SloppyJ]

Not very. Arou

What’s the lowest impact velocity you have with the 108 EH?

Not very low. Around 2750. I like them compared to the eldms because at higher velocities, the exits are more substantial from my experience.

 

[rifletuner]

The topic of HOW Berger bullets kill is interesting, and something that seems to get different answers from different people. Note that I am not questioning if they kill effectively here - I know that they do in many situations. The three main theorys I have been told are:

1) The bullet expands via the hollow point;
2) The jacket point collapses into the cavity in the lead under the jacket, thereby initiating expansion; or
3) They dont expand, they tumble in the animal, and any expansion is the by-product of tumbling.

From what I have seen, the tumbling theory doesnt line up with what I have seen. But the different causes of expanding the bullets is harder to confirm.

I know guys that are adamant that its the hollow point that initiates expansion. These are guys with a lot of experience using Bergers on sambar deer in Australia. These guys had erratic performance with Bergers in the early days, where they would sometimes experience lost animals or animals going long distances before expiring. But they started to use a fine drill bit to clear out the hollow point, and from that time they have seen consistent effective kills.

So if what they saw was causation, then that would be proof its is in fact the hollow point that initiates expansion in the animal. But maybe Berger just changed something in the manufacturing process around the same time, and those hunters are just seeing correlation.

And it gets further confused by the people that claim they made a perfect shot on an animal with a Berger, but the animal ran off and was never recovered. Those cases are often accompanied by claims that this is proof that the bullet "pencilled through". But in the absence of a recovered animal, its proof of nothing.

So thats a long way of saying that I am interested to hear what people believe is the actual cause of Berger bullets killing game. And just to add, I still use a drill bit to clean the hollow point - if for no other reason that it seems like a worthwhile insurance policy.

 

[wapitibob]

I watched a 6.5 cm Berger pencil thru on a little Deer at less than 100, and the 2nd shot pencil thru from 10 feet. Not my reloads so no idea of tip condition.
So far, I have not had an issue with 180 vld or the 195 eol.

 

[35WhelenAI]

A tipped TSX (aka TTSX) or Accubond don't have to be manually modified at the tip or have a tip manually inserted like another not to be named bullet to function as a tipped bullet to initiate an expansion. JAT.

Way too much emphasis put on the destruction of some bullets and as time goes on they don't dispatch better or quicker than the tried and true. Read up, on this forum there are more and more mixed results just like any other bullet. It's a choice, happy hunting.

Explosive expansion and vital destruction has been touted by folks on this forum that have a lot of sway into folks believing, in my opinion, they are the hammer of Thor. More and more animals take off as more and more folks jump on the bandwagon, just like when they're hit with "mortal bullets" (bullets that don't blow up) and yet there's not a blood trail and guys complain about losing game. Hmmm...

Somewhere, someone earlier in the thread said the word "marketing". To my knowledge, Berger says their bullets are limited penetration design. Think about life in general, what is beneficial about limiting most anything when it comes to a choice you have to make?

Interesting as time goes on how all bullets seem to provide spectacular results or less than desirable. Has anyone figured out yet that most all bullets take care of the business they are supposed to? It's almost as if folks are afraid to put an expanding bullet (insert bullet type: meat destroying explosive impact expansion, controlled expansion, etc) through the vitals of an animal without confirmation and validation from the internet. There's no Silver Bullet y'all. But it's entertaining to read the consternation and concern!

 

[CaliforniaMuley]

156 elite out of 6.5 PRC. About 2930 fps. In my opinion if you shoot them at the right speeds they will be effective at close range and have plenty of energy for those mid to longer shots

 

[Lou270]

The Berger hunting line has a thinner not thicker jacket than the target line. Berger keeps the jackets thin on the hunting line to ensure the bullet fragments as done not have a tradtional means of initiating expansion like a soft point, polymer tip, or hollowpoint. The hp on a berger is so small it does not not initiate expansion like a tradtional hunting or defensive round hp. The bullets go in and tip collapses or bullet starts to yaw and then because of thin jacket comes apart. Lots of damage, but limited penetration per their design. I have used 6.5, .27, 7mm Bergers personally and budides use 30s and they have all behaved as promoted by Berger which is to penetate a bit and really come apart. The only downside and reason I limit use and some of buddies have switched to other bullets is lack of blood trails when game takes off. The entrance holes are tiny and bullet does not normally exit, at least in my experience

As for target bullets, Berger thickened the jackets on their targer line several years ago as the combination of thin jackets, high velocity, and fast twist were causing bullets to come apart in flight. When they thickened the jackets, they tested the bullets and decided to keep the jackets thin on the hunting line to ensure bullet fragments. At that point they split into target and hunting lines. I often hear of people complain online the Berger pencils through and wonder if these folks are using the target model with thicker jackets. This, by the way, is all documented on blogs on their website

Lou

 

[Navaluk]

Back in 2014 I started using 180 gr Berger target hybrids in my then new 7 LRM. I was worried back then after hearing all about the need for controlled expansion bullets over my whole life. I bet I killed 6 elk before I quit worrying. Kept thinking they were flukes. I have quickly killed and so far have never had to track a single animal when using them. That includes at least 12 elk, 2 mountain goat, 1 moose, 1 desert sheep and a few deer. All were shot in the chest cavity. I would describe the result as the bullet punches through the shoulder or ribs (pencil like) then comes apart in the lungs/ heart cavity and peppers the hide on the off side with fragments including occasionally traditionally mushroomed pieces. Also occasionally there will be some pieces that go through the off side hide and are gone. I probably am the worst tracker on this forum now, come to think of it.

 

[J_Jacobson]

Ive had more failures from the 156 EOL than any other bullet. Performance seemed to be inconsistent. Some would Zip through and pin hole out while others would leave emphatic wound channels. I lost three animals over two years before I pulled the pin and went back to the trusted ELDM.

 

[Mike D Texas]

I have had a multitude of Berger failures, they simply do not open on thin skinned game like pronghorn when shooting double lung. Hit the shoulder and they explode. A happy medium would be much preferred. I for one do not promote using them as hunting bullets. I will stick with ELD's and Hammers for all future hunting uses.

That was not my experience with 156 EOL out of my 264 Win Mag AI or 144 LRHTs out of my wife’s 6.5x47