Help LS Wild design the new stock!

[Schmo]

There is only so many ways to design a stock optimally…

However, to be fair- that is exactly how it started. “I want to copy a ROKStok in wood or laminate and sell it cheaper”. LS Wild got called out in that thread for exactly that by others, and then functionally said he didn’t care and had no problem with copying items and making a cheaper version.
That’s whatever- it isn’t patented so people can do whatever they feel good about. But, don’t obfuscate and try to say it wasn’t exactly that. The original intent was “I want to make a cheaper version of a wood ROKStok, or a derivative therof, and sell it from my business”. That was the stated goal.

In fairness, I asked if UM/S2H could do a laminate version. I tagged Avery twice, and not a single reply. This started not as my project, but asking them to do it, and that I’d be a customer. When we didn’t get a reply, we thought we could then come out with our own stock, having our own design cues that we like. What about my concept photo is a copy of a Rokstok? Granted, some things will vary from the concept, but nothing that copies a RS.

Also, while LS stated he would have no moral issue copying a product, he would never copy what another small business developed. Also, read the last sentence in the post.



Key features:

Negative comb at bore centerline

1.75” trigger reach (I’ve seen you state this is optimal, and I’ve reached that conclusion myself after modifying the grip on my Stocky’s VG until it felt good to me, and ended up at 1.75”-ish

Flat toe

Short forend

Sides of the stock through the action and barrel channel cut low for weight savings - just like a KRG Echo, RS Lite, etc

 

[Formidilosus]

So I’m sitting on a couple of 3D scans of a couple of sticks and have a CNC stickmaker on board and I’m deliberating this very thing. If I did it I would call them what they are, cheaper laminated wood knockoffs. For now I’m watching where this all goes before I lay down any cash on the project.

Making versions for yourself is cool as can be- @longrangelead thinks it’s neat that guys are making their own wood ROKStoks and derivatives. Making versions and selling them is shit. Going into someone’s house and saying I’m going to take what I’ve learned from being in their house, then copy his design and undercut them- yeah no.
It leads to people saying who gives a rip about effort and innovation, I’ll just do also-rans of everyone else.
This is a “community” and the owner of the community spot has ideas and products that he sells, he allows all kinds of nonsense, takes hits everywhere for it, and to come in and say “to make a buck I’m going to copy and sell”…. Nah not for me.


Now, to take a product and actually improve it- sure. For me, I would go to the company and try to get them to improve the design, especially if it was a relatively new thing; and then if they totally ignore it or decline and won’t budge- yeah maybe you have to come up with an alternative to solve the problem.

 

[Schmo]

Making versions for yourself is cool as can be- @longrangelead thinks it’s neat that guys are making their own wood ROKStoks and derivatives. Making versions and selling them is shit. Going into someone’s house and saying I’m going to take what I’ve learned from being in their house, then copy his design and undercut them- yeah no.
It leads to people saying who gives a rip about effort and innovation, I’ll just do also-rans of everyone else.
This is a “community” and the owner of the community spot has ideas and products that he sells, he allows all kinds of nonsense, takes hits everywhere for it, and to come in and say “to make a buck I’m going to copy and sell”…. Nah not for me.


Now, to take a product and actually improve it- sure. For me, I would go to the company and try to get them to improve the design, especially if it was a relatively new thing; and then if they totally ignore it or decline and won’t budge- yeah maybe you have to come up with an alternative to solve the problem.

Okay, I have an honest question about this. Since a wood Rokstok is not available for a price that I can afford for a few years, am I not supposed to make something that I can afford? As you said, proper design can only be achieved in so many ways. I’m not going to create a stock with wrong features just so I don’t step on anyone’s toes. As you’ve said, none of this is new. Short trigger reach isn’t new. Negative comb at or above boreline isn’t new. Flat toe line isn’t new. So how is it unethical for me to make a stock with a combination of those features?

 

[BBob]

Since a wood Rokstok is not available for a price that I can afford for a few years, am I not supposed to make something that I can afford?

He stated that he and others have no issue making them for yourself, he drew the line at a direct copy made for sale.

I said knockoff in my post above but I’d change some things for what I directly want.

 

[Schmo]

he drew the line at a direct copy made for sale

Which we are not doing.

 

[BBob]

Which we are not doing.

Exactly! Carry on

This very issue has gone on in various portions of the target world. Stocks get made and adopted because they’re a great design and just work. They end up either too expensive for many to buy and or the output is too low and unless you have connections you can’t get one. So there’s the dilemma. What’s happening is others step up and offer a knockoff or near knockoff in quantities that are available and more affordable.

 

[Schmo]

Exactly! Carry on

I guess I missed something. I thought he was talking directly about our project

 

[Formidilosus]

In fairness, I asked if UM/S2H could do a laminate version. I tagged Avery twice, and not a single reply. This started not as my project, but asking them to do it, and that I’d be a customer.

Well, objectively it’s less about what you have stated in general, and more about how it started, the other person, a general pattern of taking things gleaned from here, and then selling it; and not being intellectually honest about it. I haven’t posted anything about it- until you made a post saying “we’re not copying”: where the original intent was exactly to copy it, and then quickly went to- “I’ll sell it”. And “I don’t care about copying” when someone pointed out that it was copying it.

When we didn’t get a reply, we thought we could then come out with our own stock, having our own design cues that we like. What about my concept photo is a copy of a Rokstok? Granted, some things will vary from the concept, but nothing that copies a RS.

I’m not saying your concept photo is- my first post about any of this on either thread was to your “this isn’t trying to “me too”. That’s exactly how it started.

As your concept is, there are compromises in function, but done correctly it will be a better option that most. I’ll buy one and use it, and be honest about it good or bad- like everything else.

Also, while LS stated he would have no moral issue copying a product, he would never copy what another small business developed. Also, read the last sentence in the post.

View attachment 1034640

Key features:

Negative comb at bore centerline

1.75” trigger reach (I’ve seen you state this is optimal, and I’ve reached that conclusion myself after modifying the grip on my Stocky’s VG until it felt good to me, and ended up at 1.75”-ish

Flat toe

Short forend

Sides of the stock through the action and barrel channel cut low for weight savings - just like a KRG Echo, RS Lite, etc

Yes…. No copying at all…




Again- you guys can do whatever you want. Copy it, don’t copy it- personally it’s a whatever: humans will do what they want, I don’t expect anything else.
What I do find “interesting” is straight saying “I will copy and I don’t care”, in a thread about copying a stock and selling it out from under the man who owns the forum; then coming back and saying- “we are not trying to copy in any way”.

 

[hereinaz]

So a laminated skeletonized master sporter, rokstock and a chassis had a threesome baby named rokmaster?

Basically?

 

[Schmo]

Yes…. No copying at all…

I asked this question for a reference of forearm length. I knew my Stocky’s VG already had a shorter forend. I didn’t know how the RS Lite compared. If it was almost identical in length, or even shorter. Simply trying to find the shortest functional length, as a way to save weight.

 

[Formidilosus]

Okay, I have an honest question about this. Since a wood Rokstok is not available for a price that I can afford for a few years, am I not supposed to make something that I can afford?

Did I not address that exactly in the first paragraph of the post you quoted?

As you said, proper design can only be achieved in so many ways. I’m not going to create a stock with wrong features just so I don’t step on anyone’s toes. As you’ve said, none of this is new. Short trigger reach isn’t new.

Where did you learn about the importance of trigger reach- be honest.

Negative comb at or above boreline isn’t new.

Where do you learn that from- be honest.

Flat toe line isn’t new.

Where do you learn that from- be honest.

So how is it unethical for me to make a stock with a combination of those features?

It is not unethical for you to make a stock. It’s skuzzy to take the product of the owner of the site that you be selling it on, and make a cheaper version and then sell it. Again- less (potentially) to do with you, more with the pattern of what happens, and trying to revise it.

 

[Schmo]

Where did you learn about the importance of trigger reach- be honest.

I stated that in the sentences that you quoted, you just didn’t include it. I had heard/seen you say it, and then I also confirmed that with modifying one of my own stocks, with a target number. I built up the grip until it felt short enough, and then measured. It happened to be right at 1.75”.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

There’s some good conversation happening in this thread that, while interesting to read, may not need to be hashed out in public. This reads like a conversation that should be the subject of a teleconference between the affected and interested parties.

I expect the owner of a design to make reasonable efforts to protect his interests.

As a consumer, I really hope the interested and affected parties can sort this out. The demand here clearly outstrips the supply (the price and wait time keep going up).

 

[Nine Banger]

Okay, I have an honest question about this. Since a wood Rokstok is not available for a price that I can afford for a few years, am I not supposed to make something that I can afford?

This is rationalizing. Whoever foots the bill for development on this one is going to think $2000 wood rokstoks are a steal when it's over.

Reminds me of people that try to make their own concrete countertops because granite is too expensive.

Do it because you want to but it's not going to be about the $.

 

[wind gypsy]

My memory aint perfect but I recall a time when rokstok was a concept because gunwerks was unwilling to sell component stocks for tikkas or really at a general volume/availability to fit the market. I didn't see that as foul as it was a hole in the market that gunwerks wasn't interested in filling. I see this similarly.

But back to design talk, short fore end = lame, and make a relief behind the pistol grip.

 

[BBob]

short fore end = lame

 

[Schmo]

How short is too short?

 

[Bluumoon]

My memory aint perfect but I recall a time when rokstok was a concept because gunwerks was unwilling to sell component stocks for tikkas or really at a general volume/availability to fit the market. I didn't see that as foul as it was a hole in the market that gunwerks wasn't interested in filling. I see this similarly.

But back to design talk, short fore end = lame and make a relief behind the pistol grip.

Agree.

Grab a stock and hunting rests / shooting positions and figure out what length is actually needed. Function 1st. I have some that are overly long and at least 1 that is too short.

 

[wind gypsy]

How short is too short?

I wouldn't want shorter than a KRG bravo.

Oddly specific to my use - If I cant get a schmedium +1 bag the long way between the magazine and a bipod with a little room to spare => too short.

Edit to add - that is why the rokstok lite doesn't intrigue me much. Understand others may feel differently.

 

[BBob]

How short is too short?

Rokstok Lite stock short. Mby do a short and a regular to cover everyones desires?

I'll echo Wind Gypsy's comments on it.