Griz guide/backup cartridge

[TW907]

A good bear gun is anything you shoot well!!!

 

[Pilsner]

A story for perspective: two of my friends were charged by a small sow griz they surprised in heavy cover. It was defending cubs. The bear absorbed six .338 Win Mag rounds over the course of its 20 yard charge and she died at their feet. I suppose you could argue that a well-constructed smaller bullet with less energy would have had the same effect. But either way, a tough animal, especially when supercharged with adrenaline.

I carry a 12 gauge 870 with a 18 inch barrel shooting the green lightfield slugs for bear protection. But that’s mostly because I’m a big believer in using what I’m most familiar with.

My understanding is that nearly all foster-type slugs have a very, very low SD making them piss poor for penetration (who doesn't like alliteration?).
I'd think something like the old Remington Copper Solids or Sabots would be a better choice.

Say something fool proof like a Mossberg 500 or Remmy 870 with an RMR on it would be about ideal if stuffed with copper sabots and a rifled barrel cut to 18" or so.

As the hunter I'd be fine with anything at or above a 180 grain bullet in a 30-06.
Something monometal or a Nosler Partition or a Swift A frame.

 

[Thegman]

I don't have a ton of experience shooting grizzlies head on in the brush, but I do have one anyway.

30-06 w/150 Etip worked flawlessly in this example. I stalked into a moose kill hoping to find a bear on the carcass. This guy was leaving the kill with a moose jaw in his mouth (laying in the foreground). Knew something was up and stopped in the brush at around 30 feet and faced me.

Fortunately, since he was about 1.5 seconds away if he charged, he dropped where he stood. I kept shooting just in case, but really wasn't needed.

Not saying it's the best choice, but I've used it and smaller cartridges even, to follow grizzlies after the shot on multiple occasions. Never have needed to shoot again though, either, so there is that.

Bottom line may be that a lot, or even most rifles will work well enough as long as they're shot well, the latter being far more important.

 

[StupidLightweight]

For following a wounded bear in the brush, no one is choosing a .223 as their top pick. If they claim that, they're either screwing around, are delusional, or have never seen a grizzly/brown bear. Would the .223 work? Of course. A high velocity projectile is vastly more lethal than a stick, spear, or arrow. Another consideration is this: an offensive weapon — where you determine to take the shot or wait for a better one — is very different from a defensive weapon. As lethal as a 77-grain TMK is, in the event a 1,000-pound carnivore charges from 8 feet, no one would choose that over a big-bore double. I've only killed one brown bear, and I used a Benelli R1 in .338 Win. Mag. I was the hunter. Were I the guide, that's not what I'd carry.

 

[wyosam]

A story for perspective: two of my friends were charged by a small sow griz they surprised in heavy cover. It was defending cubs. The bear absorbed six .338 Win Mag rounds over the course of its 20 yard charge and she died at their feet. I suppose you could argue that a well-constructed smaller bullet with less energy would have had the same effect. But either way, a tough animal, especially when supercharged with adrenaline.

I carry a 12 gauge 870 with a 18 inch barrel shooting the green lightfield slugs for bear protection. But that’s mostly because I’m a big believer in using what I’m most familiar with.

Impressive to get 3 shots off from a rifle in the time it takes a charging bear to cover 20 yards, even more so for all 6 to connect.


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[Wildhorse]

In my neck of the woods 223 is illegal for big game and personally it would never be my choice for much of anything outside of coyotes but I would like a 375 ruger for my choice of backup.

 

[MattB]

If you’re familiar with charging brown bear scenarios you’ll note that generally it happens quickly with little warning. There are a few YouTube’s that people have been skilled or lucky enough to capture. It’s a head - on affair more likely that not, and at close range. At best surviving it without stitches is 95% luck even with weapon at the ready. As an example to that, I don’t have a sling on any rifle I take to the bear woods. Attacks certainly don’t happen every day, most times a persons’ guard is down unless there’s a wounded bear involved. It’s not uncommon to only have time for one shot, rifle, pistol, or shotgun, unless a person has ice water in their veins which leaves most of us out. I know one guide like that and she’s a girl.

I would be hesitant to recommend using what experience tells us is going to be a single round of .224 diameter 77TMK in that scenario, I wouldn’t be confident in it holding together and delivering the penetration required to break bone and put a stop to the charge.

If there was a 100 yard shot available on a broadside feeding brown bear, out in the open…totally different scenario and I’m sure the TMK would be plenty adequate.

I know more than one bear guide. I don’t know any of them that use an M4 and a 77TMK for backup. Maybe they have it all wrong, however most of them are smart folks and like to come home to their families. If there was a better way, I’m sure they would get aboard.

One of the best thing’s believe it or not is a good dog. The biggest bear is scared silly of an aggressive 15# Jack Russell.

Hope that wasn’t condescending or TMI. Not the intent.

It is likely some people on the internet who have no experience with big bears confuse what will kill with what will stop.

 

[wyosam]

I don't have a ton of experience shooting grizzlies head on in the brush, but I do have one anyway.

30-06 w/150 Etip worked flawlessly in this example. I stalked into a moose kill hoping to find a bear on the carcass. This guy was leaving the kill with a moose jaw in his mouth (laying in the foreground). Knew something was up and stopped in the brush at around 30 feet and faced me.

Fortunately, since he was about 1.5 seconds away if he charged, he dropped where he stood. I kept shooting just in case, but really wasn't needed.

Not saying it's the best choice, but I've used it and smaller cartridges even, to follow grizzlies after the shot on multiple occasions. Never have needed to shoot again though, either, so there is that.

Bottom line may be that a lot, or even most rifles will work well enough as long as they're shot well, the latter being far more important.

View attachment 631146

I have no practical experience, as I have never had to shoot a charging bear. My gut has always said that most any big game capable rifle cartridge is probably plenty if shot well. The 10mm auto is generally considered adequate, and anything I’d shoot an elk with, even those with pretty mild recoil, pack a bunch more wallop than a hard cast 10mm from a G20. Bullet choice and placement are a big factor, but I’ve never convinced myself that bears care much about headstamps. I suppose if I ever find out I’m wrong, there’s worse things to be than bear shit.


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[gerry35]

Have carried 30-06 and some of the 300 magnums. Have used the 35 Whelen and 375 Ruger on grizzly and they work great. The 35 Whelen is my big gun these days. Was just thinking again today that a Browning BLR 300 WSM with 220 gr Partitions would make an awesome gun to take camping and make a good back up gun. A BLR in 325 WSM if you could find one would be great too.

I noticed too that the only guy who has never been around a grizzly thinks a 223 would be a good choice. Talk about delusional. Miss Logger Dan and his common sense on this thread and hope he comes back.

 

[Greyinggrayling]

My backup shooters for Kodiak bear hunt were carrying .375 H&H and .338 WinMag. I would accept nothing less backing me on an adrenaline bear. They are hard to kill.
Previous bear (grizzly) a couple of years ago caught us by surprise and took a gun battle to bring down. Like a junkie running from the cops. Or toward the cops.

 

[Trackselk]

Is there a 'reliable enough' 12 gauge semiautomatic? Yeah, I'd lean towards something that would have enough energy deposited to try and stop or slow their forward travel, so I could get more slugs in them. When you're talking maybe one shot at a charging bear or you die, you'd want the biggest solid slug that you can handle. Hard cast or copper to break bones. I'm afraid they'd run right through lesser energy rounds like the 223 tmk and kill you then die. You want to deposit maximum energy and break bones.
Edit: break bones from head to toe

 

[PNWGATOR]

This is such an interesting topic.

Objectively, what does it actually take? To ‘stop’. To ‘kill’. To ‘put down’. Whatever.

What does this take to immediately ‘stop’ a brown/grizzly in a DLP situation? What is the criteria? Knock down power? Foot pounds of energy? Killing power? Kinetic energy? Wound channel? Depth of penetration? Hits on target? Retained weight of projectile?

What is it? What’s effective? Why?

Objectively interested.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

Impressive to get 3 shots off from a rifle in the time it takes a charging bear to cover 20 yards, even more so for all 6 to connect.


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You mean impossible…

 

[PredatorSlayer]

This is such an interesting topic.

Objectively, what does it actually take? To ‘stop’. To ‘kill’. To ‘put down’. Whatever.

What does this take to immediately ‘stop’ a brown/grizzly in a DLP situation? What is the criteria? Knock down power? Foot pounds of energy? Killing power? Kinetic energy? Wound channel? Depth of penetration? Hits on target? Retained weight of projectile?

What is it? What’s effective? Why?

Objectively interested.

CNS shot is the answer. Doesn’t matter from what cartridge.

 

[wyosam]

This is such an interesting topic.

Objectively, what does it actually take? To ‘stop’. To ‘kill’. To ‘put down’. Whatever.

What does this take to immediately ‘stop’ a brown/grizzly in a DLP situation? What is the criteria? Knock down power? Foot pounds of energy? Killing power? Kinetic energy? Wound channel? Depth of penetration? Hits on target? Retained weight of projectile?

What is it? What’s effective? Why?

Objectively interested.

I would guess it depends on where the shot lands- if it finds CNS (brain/spinal cord), doesn’t take much of any measurement, thought it does obviously take some to get there. Destruction of vitals will kill, but not necessarily stop quickly. Breaking big bones other than spine will
Help stop and hopefully buy you time for that CNS hit. Enough is the answer to all of the above! Myself, I bet on depth of penetration and wound channel. Can’t find the CNS if it stops before it gets there, even if the shot is right on the money. And it needs to be making a mess on its way through. Shot placement is key, which to me means rifle fit is huge. When I built my primary hunting rifle, I fiddled with it until if I look at something say 20 yards away, close my eyes then shoulder my rifle, when I open my eyes, I’m centered in the scope, and crosshairs are very near what I was looking at. Natural point matters. Also want a scope with a low bottom end power (2 is my preference), and a big field of view.


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[35WhelenAI]

A story for perspective: two of my friends were charged by a small sow griz they surprised in heavy cover. It was defending cubs. The bear absorbed six .338 Win Mag rounds over the course of its 20 yard charge and she died at their feet. I suppose you could argue that a well-constructed smaller bullet with less energy would have had the same effect. But either way, a tough animal, especially when supercharged with adrenaline.

I carry a 12 gauge 870 with a 18 inch barrel shooting the green lightfield slugs for bear protection. But that’s mostly because I’m a big believer in using what I’m most familiar with.

Realizing this is an older post, however a quick human covers 40 yds in about five seconds.

Six aimed and connecting shots from a 338 WinMag in half that distance, where a .338 Win Mag holds 3+ 1 in the chamber. Think on that.

Let's say both of them fired three shots if they had the same cartridge. Working a bolt action 3 times if two rifles were firing, or cycling the bolt twice on an empty gun and thinking the gun was still firing in well under three seconds by a single shooter if the bear was covering 20 yards...

You saw this or took it as gospel?

 

[TaperPin]

One of the most interesting people that I wished more time was spent with was a retired federal fish and wildlife enforcement guy who worked in coastal Alaska. When there was a bear attack, a wounded bear, or a problem bear he was one of the guys that would be called. He was a pilot, would fly the area and locate the bear before landing, then go in solo to dispatch it. If it wasn’t where it was supposed to be, he’d get back in the plane and find it again. If ever there was a guy with experience killing bears in bad situations it would be him. His gun of choice at the time he retired was a magnum length Mauser .416 Rem Mag with a 20” barrel. He had a reason for upgrading from the 375 H&H, but we didn’t get to that story.

My rifle when salmon fishing in Alaska was a 7 lb 375 h&h, but after talking with that guy I no longer felt over gunned. Lol

 

[Fatcamp]

Realizing this is an older post, however a quick human covers 40 yds in about five seconds.

Six aimed and connecting shots from a 338 WinMag in half that distance, where a .338 Win Mag holds 3+ 1 in the chamber. Think on that.

Let's say both of them fired three shots if they had the same cartridge. Working a bolt action 3 times if two rifles were firing, or cycling the bolt twice on an empty gun and thinking the gun was still firing in well under three seconds by a single shooter if the bear was covering 20 yards...

You saw this or took it as gospel?

I imagine after the first two rounds the bear slowed significantly. And I just assumed both men were shooting.

 

[35WhelenAI]

I imagine after the first two rounds the bear slowed significantly. And I just assumed both men were shooting.

Good points. DawnPatrol, any more details with your friends account? Glad they came out all right.

 

[AkMtnRunner]

I just recently listened to a podcast that referenced several bear guides’ philosophies. The one that I found most useful was that there really aren’t any stopping cartridges, rather there are some that can slow the bear down enough to get the next round into them.