Good news for Ebiker users on public land.

[Wyobohunter]

Well hey, at least you're honest about your elitism. You have no real reason they are bad, you just want to keep people out. What a super guy!

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Let’s put this in perspective. I don’t know what the median age of the Rokslide community is. I’m not “old” but I’d be willing to bet I’m on the older 1/2 of that. I’m not in top physical condition. When I got out of the military I was in peak condition and 25 years younger. Back then I could have kept up with most anyone on here. 25 years later I can still cover some ground but it could be better. My limits are just that, limits. It’s part of getting older and fatter. Don’t try to change the rules and ruin it for those that are willing and able to put in the work because you are not.

 

[wind gypsy]

Human density and presence is increasing significantly in the backcountry without making the laws more liberal to allow more motorized travel.

I'm against reducing restrictions on motorized travel/ebikes and it has nothing to do with "elitism" but instead preserving what we have. There are enough challenges to doing so as it is.

 

[wind gypsy]

Also.. Comparing ebikes to traditional uses like horses is laughable.

 

[CJ19]

As non resident with a limited amount of time on my western hunts, an ebike might allow me to cover more of the ground i want to see. Im not really fan of ebikes on non motorized trails or whatever, but its one of those pieces of tech thats here and not going away anytime soon. Improved methods of personal transportation are only going to make this type of question more and more complicated for people who want to get away in hard to reach places.

 

[CJ19]

Also.. Comparing ebikes to traditional uses like horses is laughable.

Whys that? I disagree with that.

 

[Wyobohunter]

Whys that? I disagree with that.

Off the top of my head. 1,000 watts is a little over 1.3 horsepower. 1 horse is about 1 horsepower. That’s over a 30% increase. That increase is then applied to a smaller contact patch that can spin out. E-bikes can also go much faster than horses can. We should just call them “electric motorcycles”. That’s what they are.

 

[CJ19]

Off the top of my head. 1,000 watts is a little over 1.3 horsepower. 1 horse is about 1 horsepower. That’s over a 30% increase. That increase is then applied to a smaller contact patch that can spin out. E-bikes can also go much faster than horses can. We should just call them “electric motorcycles”. That’s what they are.

I mean i see the pojnt your are trying make, but having horses and being around them everyday...i dont really think they are less destructive or intrusive than an ebike. I think the idea of allowing horses instead of ebikes because horses are important part of the culture heritage and history of the American west is a much better argument. Just my opinion.

 

[Wyobohunter]

I mean i see the pojnt your are trying make, but having horses and being around them everyday...i dont really think they are less destructive or intrusive than an ebike. I think the idea of allowing horses instead of ebikes because horses are important part of the culture heritage and history of the American west is a much better argument. Just my opinion.

I think that’s a good argument as well. Plus, we are talking about non-motorized areas. E-bikes have motors. No getting around that.

 

[wind gypsy]

Whys that? I disagree with that.

Because my opposition to Ebikes is based on preservation of our wild places that have enough increased human presence without opening up technology to make it even easier.

I have been on a horse once or twice as a child 25+ years ago. If i'm going to use horses for backcountry travel it's going to take a serious ****in commitment to become horse competent and that's just to rent horses. I'm going to need a vehicle capable of towing them and it's going to cost a bundle more than renting an Ebike would. Also, If I rent horses, I'm probably limiting camp sites to be near water, i'm going to have to return to them to feed them and tend to them throughout the trip. That can be a huge burden if you're trying to stay on animals. Horse ownership? Now I'd need land or pay significant boarding fees, need trailers, tack, food, vet bills, etc.

I could throw a rented E-Bike on my wife's subaru and be gone. There are lots of people like me who have no business being around horses who would be putting themselves in significant physical and financial danger by using them in the mountains but the same is not true with Ebikes.

 

[TheGDog]

Lot of N.I.M.B.Y.'s ( not in my back yard) on this thread. I don't use them, or like them so nobody should be able to use them. Just emotional responses. No real proof of more resource damage caused by ebikes than other forms of hooved transportation. Too, I think some responders are a bit confused between "designated wilderness" and general National Forest trail systems.

For myself it's not that.... my take is that you can observe what happens to the terrain inside designated OHV areas to see the effects it has on the landscape.

And if you then present this solution that minimizes the users "sweat-equity", you can best believe they'll use it more... which will lead to greater levels of erosion and trail-wear-and-tear... AND will lead to people doing more "exploring" upon the lands... effectively creating the equivalent of like an "urban-sprawl", but in terms of the trail usage and subsequent increase in trail-erosion that would cause.

I don't go all that deep in.. maybe 5-8 mi tops... but even with that little amount you already notice an improvement in getting yourself into better areas where the critters aren't as spooked. So you figure... if they then allow eBikes into a buncha places willie-nillie, what's that going to mean in terms of how dang far you've got to go on back in there before you get yourself into an area where they no longer are spooked due to higher traffic passing thru as a result of giving carte-blanche to eBikes to go many more places?

I'm Ok with them allowing eBikes to be allowed on SPECIFIC trails. Like ones where they are already heavily trafficked by on-foot hikers anyway, so you'd unlikely hunt there anyway. Give 'em their fun, but relegate it to controllable areas.

I mean out here... lotta places won't even allow MTB's to pass thru for several days after a rain, to minimize the risk of erosion problems that come along with allowing them to ride thru when it's all muddy at spots. So it's not a stretch to extend this type of philosophy towards being cautious about where/when you allow the eBikes to roam.

Horses can cause erosion too... that's why some places also disallow them as well. So there is precedent for it. At least out here on Kaumifornistan anyway.

 

[wind gypsy]

I mean i see the pojnt your are trying make, but having horses and being around them everyday...i dont really think they are less destructive or intrusive than an ebike. I think the idea of allowing horses instead of ebikes because horses are important part of the culture heritage and history of the American west is a much better argument. Just my opinion.

Heritage, historic use, and tradition aside, I think ebikes would have a larger negative impact on the wild places via higher density and frequency of human use, than horses.

We would have to open up regulations to allow ebikes and we would have to restrict forever standing regulations to reduce horse use. If the goal is just to make it accessible to everyone, why stop at ebikes?

 

[CJ19]

Because my opposition to Ebikes is based on preservation of our wild places that have enough increased human presence without opening up technology to make it even easier.

I have been on a horse once or twice as a child 25+ years ago. If i'm going to use horses for backcountry travel it's going to take a serious ****in commitment to become horse competent and that's just to rent horses. I'm going to need a vehicle capable of towing them and it's going to cost a bundle more than renting an Ebike would. Also, If I rent horses, I'm probably limiting camp sites to be near water, i'm going to have to return to them to feed them and tend to them throughout the trip. That can be a huge burden if you're trying to stay on animals. Horse ownership? Now I'd need land or pay significant boarding fees, need trailers, tack, food, vet bills, etc.

I could throw a rented E-Bike on my wife's subaru and be gone. There are lots of people like me who have no business being around horses who would be putting themselves in significant physical and financial danger by using them in the mountains but the same is not true with Ebikes.

Yea, horses are definitely a huge commitment. I thought about bringing a horse out for a hunt but the thought of letting a horse out of my site in the mountains that far from home is a no go. If i came back from my hunt without the horse, my wife would have my head as a euro mount.

 

[Billy Goat]

Off the top of my head. 1,000 watts is a little over 1.3 horsepower. 1 horse is about 1 horsepower. That’s over a 30% increase. That increase is then applied to a smaller contact patch that can spin out. E-bikes can also go much faster than horses can. We should just call them “electric motorcycles”. That’s what they are.

That very argument equates a horse to a motor.


So since a horsepower is 750 watt, would you be ok with 750w and less ebikes anywhere?

 

[Marble]

Currently this rule change doesn't affect me. I do not have an Ebike but would and have considered getting one.

I've also considered a little trail bike but just haven't really found what I really want.

The difference I see between the two are noise, pollutants and possibly how far you can go.

For now I dont like being at the top of a drainage and hear a dirt bike coming up the trail. So the noise reduction would be nice.

For pollution it's pretty minor. I've just seen some spilled fuel/oil on the trails.

It provides access to some who can't peddle a bike. Good for them.

And as far as elitism being mentioned.. good lord you guys. Am I an elitist cause I can buy an E bike? Ridiculous maybe I missed something with some context.

For me it's an option in the future, but idk. Maybe when I'm a bit older or if I get injured.

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[TheGDog]

That very argument equates a horse to a motor.


So since a horsepower is 750 watt, would you be ok with 750w and less ebikes anywhere?

It's my understanding that for larger dudes, especially with a pack full of water and gear, that it would not be optimal to go for a 750W or lower motor for an eBike you'd plan to use for helping you with Hunting.

Obviously it'd *help*, but it's my understanding that if presented with a long uphill, that 750W motor will be over-taxed with a 220+ Lbs dude and his pack on it.

(For context, I asked questions of the owner of a local LBS whom could custom-build one for me, explaining this place I goto that has a 7mi road that goes all downhill to get down into there. They disallow normal folks on that road with a vehicle. But bikes they're OK with, not sure if they've gone back and specifically marked it as no eBikes or not.)

 

[mavinwa2]

Over the years, several People/hunters that I've observed are largely unprepared for the back country.
An E-bike getting those types in another 5+ miles will just result in more forest service, volunteer rescues. The further back country you go, more risk is taken, more crap can happen. Few are prepared for that risk should it hit the fan.
Backcountry is no place for poor health, poor outdoorsman skills and lack of preparedness.

Non-motorized trails should remain as that, no motors, no packing in generators etc.
Yes, there is a famous horse camp in the Twisp Sawtooth Mtns that pack in a gas generator(s) to their camp. They go in prior to hunt season to stage gear. Even leave some gear buried into sealed 50-gal drums over the winter. Every year for the past 20.

 

[CJ19]

Currently this rule change doesn't affect me. I do not have an Ebike but would and have considered getting one.

I've also considered a little trail bike but just haven't really found what I really want.

The difference I see between the two are noise, pollutants and possibly how far you can go.

For now I dont like being at the top of a drainage and hear a dirt bike coming up the trail. So the noise reduction would be nice.

For pollution it's pretty minor. I've just seen some spilled fuel/oil on the trails.

It provides access to some who can't peddle a bike. Good for them.

And as far as elitism being mentioned.. good lord you guys. Am I an elitist cause I can buy an E bike? Ridiculous maybe I missed something with some context.

For me it's an option in the future, but idk. Maybe when I'm a bit older or if I get injured.

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Just to be clear, i dont think any rules were necessarily changed at this time. All they said was they might consider special circumstances in the future. If im interpretting it correctly.

 

[Rifleman86]

The reason my public land “honey holes” in elk country exist is because they take a shit ton of work to get there, as well as a shit ton of work to get anything out of.

You want to move more elk off public ground and onto private, this is the way you do it.

 

[Wyobohunter]

That very argument equates a horse to a motor.


So since a horsepower is 750 watt, would you be ok with 750w and less ebikes anywhere?

Nope. The contact patch is still smaller on a bike. And horses don’t spin out.

 

[Wyobohunter]

Again, for the wishful. It has not changed and will not likely change how you are able to hunt non-motorized areas. I had a good talk with a USFS representative who is in the know, just a couple of hours ago. This thread can be over now… I guess once the crying is done anyway.