Getting into ML

[guitarpreston]

Long story short, if I had a ml and tag instead of archery I would not be eating archery tag soup…so I’m starting to do my research. Thinking probably for deer only in Colorado and maybe NM. Leaves me needing to shoot bh209 or similar, with open sights. I’d like to reach 250 max. From what I read 45 would be a better choice unless I want to hunt Colorado elk as well. Starting to look around for next season, anything you would suggest or shy away from?
Looking at a knight ul, cva accura, or woodman arms patriot.

 

[ElDiablito]

And as you know, full-bore conicals are required in CO - so that limits you slightly with a .45. Hornady just brought out the .45 Bore Driver ELDX and Thor is supposedly bringing out a .45 mono conical this year. You could shoot sized jacketed .45 bullets (maybe) or lead .45 conicals.

A .50 would be more versatile. The Knights and the Woodman are great rifles. TC will be bringing back their Encore 209x50 and maybe some other muzzies in 2025. I’d wait and see what they come out with. I wouldn’t spend my money on anything CVA makes.

 

[KyleR1985]

Step 1 - buy my rifle in the classifieds.

Step 2 - buy .503 no excuses bullets, wonder wads, 209 primers, and 777 FFG powder.

Step 3 - start with 60gr of powder and work up to the highest powder charge you can shoot an acceptable group, below 100gr powder. Hint - it’ll probably be 70-80gr powder.

Step 4 - accept that you probably won’t shoot well in the field past 100 yards, maybe 150, under good conditions, on elk sized target.

Deer I would be awful impressed if you shoot past 100 yards effectively with open sights/loose powder/no sabots.


Step 1 most important though - you have to get a rifle that will shoot well with no sabots. Anything with the muzzle loading assist thingy on the end won’t work. The knights are awesome couple others that are good too.

 

[ElDiablito]

Step 4 - accept that you probably won’t shoot well in the field past 100 yards, maybe 150, under good conditions, on elk sized target.

That depends on your rifle/load, sights and your ability as a shooter. I have no problem shooting 200 yards with my open sighted rifles. Lots of guys are shooting further than that.

Step 1 most important though - you have to get a rifle that will shoot well with no sabots. Anything with the muzzle loading assist thingy on the end won’t work.

The “muzzle loading assist thingy”? TC QLA? Won’t work? Not exactly true.

 

[KyleR1985]

That depends on your rifle/load, sights and your ability as a shooter. I have no problem shooting 200 yards with my open sighted rifles. Lots of guys are shooting further than that.




The “muzzle loading assist thingy”? TC QLA? Won’t work? Not exactly true.

I got the disc extreme to shoot further than I can. I guess that’s my point. If someone shoots enough to shoot open sights/no sabots/loose powder to 200 yards on deer sized game effectively in field conditions, they probably aren’t coming here for advice. I guess I shouldn’t assume that - just making the point to temper expectations of the shooter not the rifle.



I tried everything with a partners TC with qla and eventually broke down and bought the Knight. Trust me I didn’t want to - given that I wanted to not have to buy a rifle. I’m admittedly just an average Joe when it comes to shooting. Again, I shouldn’t assume that someone with more experience and resources than me can’t get there.

Just trying to press the easy button for the fella.

 

[ElDiablito]

I tried everything with a partners TC with qla and eventually broke down and bought the Knight. Trust me I didn’t want to - given that I wanted to not have to buy a rifle. I’m admittedly just an average Joe when it comes to shooting. Again, I shouldn’t assume that someone with more experience and resources than me can’t get there.

Just trying to press the easy button for the fella.

You’re right to point out that some TC QLAs were off-center and will not shoot conicals well. Not all though. I have six or seven TCs and one would not shoot conicals (so I cut off the qla and recrowned the barrel - problem solved). But the other remedy that has been well documented is simply to use a conical with a skirt or load a “sub base”under your conical (cut off sabot or 28 ga wad or an MMP sub base). Easy.

 

[sage1]

Plus one knight

 

[Wrench]

I'd stuff a no excuses bullet and 80grs of swiss with a lubed wad and go win. I have several muzzleloaders that will shoot this well.

 

[TaperPin]

Long story short, if I had a ml and tag instead of archery I would not be eating archery tag soup…so I’m starting to do my research. Thinking probably for deer only in Colorado and maybe NM. Leaves me needing to shoot bh209 or similar, with open sights. I’d like to reach 250 max. From what I read 45 would be a better choice unless I want to hunt Colorado elk as well. Starting to look around for next season, anything you would suggest or shy away from?
Looking at a knight ul, cva accura, or woodman arms patriot.

I think you’re on the right track with a well known rifle of whatever flavor. If you are stuck using iron sights only, I wouldn’t pass up a good deal on a traditional rifle like anything from Lyman if that style is at all interesting. I had one and 100 yard groups were ridiculously good - with a tang sight that could be dialed up it would easily be a 200 yard deer gun.

A lot of guys try one, loose interest, and sell what is essentially a new rifle.

 

[guitarpreston]

Really starting to lean towards a g3 patriot. Can’t find anything negative about them.

 

[ElDiablito]

Really starting to lean towards a g3 patriot. Can’t find anything negative about them.

That’s my next muzzy. Everything Mark Woodman makes is top notch!

 

[ElDiablito]

Really starting to lean towards a g3 patriot. Can’t find anything negative about them.

Another great Woodman option would be one of his smokeless capable .45 or .50 barrels for a TC Omega. Fantastic muzzy!

 

[OXN939]

If someone shoots enough to shoot open sights/no sabots/loose powder to 200 yards on deer sized game effectively in field conditions

You always hear 6" for ethical shots on deer. I encourage anyone with aspirations of shooting a muzzleloader with irons that far to set up an actual 6" plate at 200 and just look at its angular size for a second. To save the effort, it's like a fourth the size of most standard front sight pins.

Add to that how quickly muzzleloaders lose energy, how much elevation and windage you'd have to hold and the impossibility of a quick follow up shot, and you see why muzzleloader hunting is not a long range game if you care about hunting ethically. Even with my scoped muzzleloaders, I would be very hesitant to shoot past 150.

Not saying that dudes can't ping steel a few hundred yards away with irons in a manicured range environment, but everyone knows how often you get a best case scenario like that in the field.

 

[guitarpreston]

You always hear 6" for ethical shots on deer. I encourage anyone with aspirations of shooting a muzzleloader with irons that far to set up an actual 6" plate at 200 and just look at its angular size for a second. To save the effort, it's like a fourth the size of most standard front sight pins.

Add to that how quickly muzzleloaders lose energy, how much elevation and windage you'd have to hold and the impossibility of a quick follow up shot, and you see why muzzleloader hunting is not a long range game if you care about hunting ethically. Even with my scoped muzzleloaders, I would be very hesitant to shoot past 150.

Not saying that dudes can't ping steel a few hundred yards away with irons in a manicured range environment, but everyone knows how often you get a best case scenario like that in the field.

100%. That’s just a reference point because I had animals inside that multiple times. I assume 200 with a muzzy will be similar to 75+ with a bow. Practice at 200-250 with hopes for shots at 150 and in.

 

[KyleR1985]

One other thing - to save time with load development, use a scope with magnification if you can.

Once you’ve gotten the load that will shoot, pull in to 25 yards to get your open sights dialed in.

I didn’t do this and it cost me a lot of back and forth with binoculars on the bench.


Also, I’d really like to see the groups folks are shooting at 200 yards with .50 cal ML using open sights, loose powder, no sabots, and enough velocity to kill critters at that distance. I admittedly stepped away from this style of shooting after the hunt I went on. And I don’t shoot a lot (less than 1000 rounds a year across all guns). But my ghost ring front blade would probably cover an entire deer at 200 yards.

 

[Mtndawger]

One other thing - to save time with load development, use a scope with magnification if you can.

Once you’ve gotten the load that will shoot, pull in to 25 yards to get your open sights dialed in.

I didn’t do this and it cost me a lot of back and forth with binoculars on the bench.


Also, I’d really like to see the groups folks are shooting at 200 yards with .50 cal ML using open sights, loose powder, no sabots, and enough velocity to kill critters at that distance. I admittedly stepped away from this style of shooting after the hunt I went on. And I don’t shoot a lot (less than 1000 rounds a year across all guns). But my ghost ring front blade would probably cover an entire deer at 200 yards.

Great tips and good pragmatic point of view advice for newcomers. Finding ways to speed up the sight in and load development is key. For hunting, with a rear aperture and front globe with crosshairs I can shoot comfortably accurate 2-3” groups @ 100 yards and likely further. I would be confidant with that. Problem is you can’t see those shaded crosshairs in a low light hunting situation on game. I won’t risk that on an animal. So I went back to the factory fiber front sight and they make the things so large that it covers a 6” target @ 100. Add in typical hunting scenario and for 90% of hunters you realize 100-150 is really max practical range. The other point is to keep it simple… isn’t that one of the big reasons for using primitive weapons? It’s ridiculous how over complicated and geared up guys make bow hunting and MZ hunting. Learn how to hunt and you don’t need to worry about 200 yard shots. I say that with all due respect to guys who have the time and money to devote to it but that isnt the case for the majority.

 

[KyleR1985]

Great tips and good pragmatic point of view advice for newcomers. Finding ways to speed up the sight in and load development is key. For hunting, with a rear aperture and front globe with crosshairs I can shoot comfortably accurate 2-3” groups @ 100 yards and likely further. I would be confidant with that. Problem is you can’t see those shaded crosshairs in a low light hunting situation on game. I won’t risk that on an animal. So I went back to the factory fiber front sight and they make the things so large that it covers a 6” target @ 100. Add in typical hunting scenario and for 90% of hunters you realize 100-150 is really max practical range. The other point is to keep it simple… isn’t that one of the big reasons for using primitive weapons? It’s ridiculous how over complicated and geared up guys make bow hunting and MZ hunting. Learn how to hunt and you don’t need to worry about 200 yard shots. I say that with all due respect to guys who have the time and money to devote to it but that isnt the case for the majority.

Share your experience.

I’m not coming at this from a 10000round per year, or a guy who owns 7 ML’s perspective.

I’m coming at it from the OP’s perspective, just one long offseason ahead of him on the same path.

It’s practical advice based on that perspective. My default is that if someone comes here asking to do something that 99.99999% of people can’t do, they don’t know that only 99.99999% of people can do it. Why? Because that’s what I’d do. I’ve asked these same questions. My theory of mind is likely closer to correct that than the 99.99999%er offering advice.

Like I said - I share no perspective with top notch shooters. I would be stoked to see 200 yard sub 6” groups in random low light field conditions from a western legal ML from members here. They’re regular guys too - which gives me hope!


but Between now and those getting posted up, the OP could be shooting 3-4” groups all day at 100 with the above advice.

 

[guitarpreston]

I snuck in to 125 once on a group of bucks last year, but there was an open field between us and I just could not get to bow range...Literally was impossible, 6 inch tall grass between us...But that should have been a dead deer with a muzzy. Also had a black bear pop out at 200, since I didn't have a tag (like a fool) I did not try to get closer however I probably could have. Both of which seem reasonable from my perspective of not knowing crap.

 

[ElDiablito]

200 yards (and further for some guys) is totally doable with the right rifle/sights and load in a Colorado-legal rig.

I have over 30 muzzies and hunt exclusively with them (or a bow on occasion) all over the country.

My recommendation for a Colorado legal set up is a peep with the fine .019 fiber optic Williams Western Precision front globe.

With reasonable 100-120 gr charges of 777 or Bh209, and a modern bullet, you’d have no problem (terminal performance wise) killing deer-sized game to 300 yards.

150 yards max with a scoped muzzy?! Surely you’re joking @OXN939!

 

[Mtndawger]

I snuck in to 125 once on a group of bucks last year, but there was an open field between us and I just could not get to bow range...Literally was impossible, 6 inch tall grass between us...But that should have been a dead deer with a muzzy. Also had a black bear pop out at 200, since I didn't have a tag (like a fool) I did not try to get closer however I probably could have. Both of which seem reasonable from my perspective of not knowing crap.

For sure you end up in scenarios where you need to get closer and can’t. iMHO that is part of hunting. The way I think about that is to accept that, but learn from it and come back the next day with a new plan to be in a better place to make the kill. In the same vane, so many examples of having more and better technology would have resulted in a kill opportunity. You are not a hunting failure because you lacked that. Hunting is a long game unless you are strictly a meat guy. For many it’s as much about the chase as the kill