Getting into ML

[OXN939]

150 yards max with a scoped muzzy?! Surely you’re joking @OXN939!

Absolutely! Here are a few reasons why.

1. This thread is about a brand new hunter asking for advice, not a guy with over 30 muzzleloaders.

2. Even among experienced blackpowder hunters, most setups in the field today are not capable of ethically killing much past 200. Take a Thor 250 out of a CVA Accura, a common CO legal setup that OP mentioned. Even with a redlined load, that projectile is moving slower than bullets from many compact handguns by 250.

3. Even if you do gain years' worth of experience blackpowder hunting, spend several thousand dollars on a custom setup with ultra high BC bullets, and make a perfect shot from a field expedient position using irons on a target 400 yards away, the ballistic performance you can expect goes from "outright unethical" to "alright." Advertising long range muzzleloader hunting to brand new shooters is a lot like Cam Hanes posting videos of himself shooting 100 yards on instagram. If we knew the exact number of elk this year that were injured by a kid who watched a bunch of videos like that, bought a bow online, practiced for a month and then confidently sent a shot at an animal at about three times their realistic MER, we would collectively be sick.

So yep. 150 and in for me with my smokepoles. Make muzzleloader hunting primitive again.

 

[ElDiablito]

Absolutely! Here are a few reasons why.

1. This thread is about a brand new hunter asking for advice, not a guy with over 30 muzzleloaders.

2. Even among experienced blackpowder hunters, most setups in the field today are not capable of ethically killing much past 200. Take a Thor 250 out of a CVA Accura, a common CO legal setup that OP mentioned. Even with a redlined load, that projectile is moving slower than bullets from many compact handguns by 250.

3. Even if you do gain years' worth of experience blackpowder hunting, spend several thousand dollars on a custom setup with ultra high BC bullets, and make a perfect shot from a field expedient position using irons on a target 400 yards away, the ballistic performance you can expect goes from "outright unethical" to "alright." Advertising long range muzzleloader hunting to brand new shooters is a lot like Cam Hanes posting videos of himself shooting 100 yards on instagram. If we knew the exact number of elk this year that were injured by a kid who watched a bunch of videos like that, bought a bow online, practiced for a month and then confidently sent a shot at an animal at about three times their realistic MER, we would collectively be sick.

So yep. 150 and in for me with my smokepoles. Make muzzleloader hunting primitive again.

That’s one way to look at it. Here’s another.

[Caveat: Every hunter should be familiar and proficient with their equipment and know their (and their bullet’s) maximum range. If a guy isn’t comfortable\capable past 150 yards he shouldn’t be shooting further.]

If you're shooting a scoped muzzy, you’re not hunting CO and you can likely shoot a higher performance saboted bullet.

But let’s look at a pretty standard chart for an average 250 gr bullet (Thor with a Bc of .220) with a mv of 2000 fps. Almost 1100 ft/lbs of energy is plenty for deer-sized game at 250 yards.

 

[Mtndawger]

That’s one way to look at it. Here’s another.

[Caveat: Every hunter should be familiar and proficient with their equipment and know their (and their bullet’s) maximum range. If a guy isn’t comfortable\capable past 150 yards he shouldn’t be shooting further.]

If you're shooting a scoped muzzy, you’re not hunting CO and you can likely shoot a higher performance saboted bullet.

But let’s look at a pretty standard chart for an average 250 gr bullet (Thor with a Bc of .220) with a mv of 2000 fps. Almost 1100 ft/lbs of energy is plenty for deer-sized game at 250 yards.

View attachment 791373

1700 fps with 100 gr 777 is more realistic muzzle velocity from a 26” barrel 50 caliber 250 grain from a Cva

 

[Mtndawger]

I really do wish Colorado would change their rules on caliber. I think a .45 caliber would be every bit as good on elk, maybe better. Higher velocity and flatter trajectory.

 

[ElDiablito]

1700 fps with 100 gr 777 is more realistic muzzle velocity from a 26” barrel 50 caliber 250 grain from a Cva

Why limit yourself to 100 gr? Max load on most modern inlines is 150 grV (except Bh209 which is 120 grV).

It’s easy to hit 2000 fps with 777 and a 250 gr bullet.

 

[OXN939]

(Thor with a Bc of .220)

Their website says a BC of .205. So that gives you an anemic 1200 FPS at 250 yards. And that's redlining your rifle- tough to shoot well, recoils like a lightweight belted magnum, usually doesn't group as well as lighter loads, and makes spotting shots close to impossible.

Could accept that. Or you could hunt the way muzzleloader seasons were intended.

 

[ElDiablito]

Their website says a BC of .205. So that gives you an anemic 1200 FPS at 250 yards. And that's redlining your rifle- tough to shoot well, recoils like a lightweight belted magnum, usually doesn't group as well as lighter loads, and makes spotting shots close to impossible.

Could accept that. Or you could hunt the way muzzleloader seasons were intended.

Ok - let’s run it with .205. Doesn’t change anything. That would be 1370 fps at 250.

 

[ElDiablito]

Their website says a BC of .205. So that gives you an anemic 1200 FPS at 250 yards. And that's redlining your rifle- tough to shoot well, recoils like a lightweight belted magnum, usually doesn't group as well as lighter loads, and makes spotting shots close to impossible.

Could accept that. Or you could hunt the way muzzleloader seasons were intended.

Send me a pm. I’ll get you lined out on a high performance modern muzzleloader!

 

[Str8shooter]

New to Muzz you should be considering closer to 100 or 120 max on live animals and that's after a substantial commitment in time and practice. 250 yds with a unscoped muzzleloader is maybe more equivalent to 90 or 95 yds with a bow. Even if you drop big money on a higher end gun, and a couple hundred bucks on powder and quality bullets getting your drops right at the range, 250 yds on wild animals in hunting scenarios simply isn't a reasonable range for a new shooter to attain. Shooting in low light, in field positions and with elevated heart rates on live animals doubles (or more) your calm, prone, bench shooting group sizes. CVA, Knight and obviously custom guns can print 3 inch or smaller 100 yd groups but linear extrapolation of that to a 6 inch group at 200 yds doesnt apply in hunting conditions. Some of the best muzz shooters I know rarely if ever take a poke over 200, and that's on elk and with close to 20 yrs experience. All that being said, BH 209 is legit and don't be afraid to check out the copper projectiles, thor and borlocks smack animals into the chest freezer realm. For entry level the CVA optima is a great rifle.

 

[Wrench]

At 500 yards my bullet is going 800fps. I have put a bullet lengthwise through a whitetail with an 800fps 45lc. You can look at any of the videos that I've posted and see that it just takes a little practice to make hits way off. I just posted a few videos dusting clays at 300 shooting off of a folded gun case off the hood.....no different than shooting off my pack.

My biggest concern is the time of flight.

 

[wyosam]

I really do wish Colorado would change their rules on caliber. I think a .45 caliber would be every bit as good on elk, maybe better. Higher velocity and flatter trajectory.

The goal isn’t to maximize range, they are running a hunt with intended limitations.


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[Mtndawger]

The goal isn’t to maximize range, they are running a hunt with intended limitations.


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I should have been more clear. I’m not arguing that because I want to shoot farther. I am in favor of keeping it relatively primitive. 45 caliber is just as effective on elk and easier to shoot. They made the regulation before we had so many good 45 calibers and bullets.

 

[Mtndawger]

Why limit yourself to 100 gr? Max load on most modern inlines is 150 grV (except Bh209 which is 120 grV).

It’s easy to hit 2000 fps with 777 and a 250 gr bullet.

I limit myself because I believe the spirit of the muzzleloader season, in Colorado and the NW at least , is for the more primitive aspect of it. I don’t believe we should be recommending to a guy like the OP he shoots 150 grains and knock his fillings out of his head and then Go down the rabbit hole of muzzle brakes and other technologies to deal with that. I do believe that within those limitations we strive to practice and shoot as accurately as we possibly can. To each his own on all of that but that is my reasoning.

 

[ElDiablito]

The goal isn’t to maximize range, they are running a hunt with intended limitations.

No, I think they’re stuck in the 1980s. Caliber restriction doesn’t limit anything. I recently had a CPW manager tell me that .45s weren’t up to the task of killing elk and moose ethically.

 

[ElDiablito]

I don’t believe we should be recommending to a guy like the OP he shoots 150 grains and knock his fillings out of his head and then Go down the rabbit hole of muzzle brakes and other technologies to deal with that.

The OP is looking to shoot “250 yards max” and is “leaning towards” a 6lb modern smokeless-capable rifle (Patriot). Sounds like he isn’t interested in the “primitive aspect of it,” buying a trad rifle and limiting himself to 150 yard ranges. The vast majority of new guys getting into muzzys aren’t these days.

I’m an advocate of guys shooting whatever they want to within the guidelines of the state regs. Personally, I hunt with a muzzleloader on all my rifle, LE and OIL tags. I like the challenge.

 

[RockAndSage]

Whether 250yds, 200, or 150, the biggest limitation will be the shooter - not the gun, and certainly not the ballistics of a big muzzleloader bullet. Anything in that mass range going above 1000fps is going to pass right through any deer broadside. Any modern muzzleloader should be capable of hitting a 6" plate out to 200, with the right load - you do need to tune the load to the gun, and experiment.

The biggest issue is iron sights - guys just aren't used to shooting them anymore. And especially in the realities of hunting, they tend to focus on the target, not the front sight. That's the single biggest challenge for the OP - mastering irons, and hold-overs once he gets out past 100yds.

I'm personally good out to 200yds with a traditional percussion Hawken-style rifle shooting .54cal patched round-ball, using a very narrow german-silver front sight and fixed buckhorn rear - but I'd still stalk that shot down to 150 or 100yds if at all possible. I've also got thousands of rounds on that rifle, every bullet poured into a single-cavity mold myself, and 10x those numbers in dry-firing with the set-triggers. I know that rifle intimately, because I competed with it as a kid for years. And I spent weeks of daily shooting in the beginning finding just the right patch material, thickness, and cut, along with powder charge to give maximum accuracy.

I've seen guys much better than me with traditional guns - including flintlocks - smacking silhouettes down hard out to 500 yards.

Most modern muzzleloader hunters would never believe muzzleloaders can do that - because they've never seen it done. I have, repeatedly. It's the shooter, not the gun.

OP, the entire question for you personally is easily solved with this: plan on spending 6 months shooting weekly, at least 10 rounds per session, and dry-fire daily. Start by shooting for groups at 50yds in field-realistic positions - with a very clear metric in your mind of what is acceptable. When you can do that 10 for 10, move to 75yds. Repeat, go to 100, then 125.

You will know precisely what your limits are with that rifle in the realities of the field - and those limitations will be much farther out for you at the end of this than they are now, with all that practice.

 

[RockAndSage]

Long story short, if I had a ml and tag instead of archery I would not be eating archery tag soup…so I’m starting to do my research. Thinking probably for deer only in Colorado and maybe NM. Leaves me needing to shoot bh209 or similar, with open sights. I’d like to reach 250 max. From what I read 45 would be a better choice unless I want to hunt Colorado elk as well. Starting to look around for next season, anything you would suggest or shy away from?
Looking at a knight ul, cva accura, or woodman arms patriot.

OP, just re-read your post - if I were choosing an iron-sight modern muzzleloader, especially with the expectation of almost yearly hunts with it, it would be hard to beat a CVA Paramount Pro V2, with the Williams sights. You could take that game up even further with an adjustable rear-aperture from a company like Gehmann (helps with optimizing for light, and focus).

One thing I can't stress enough is to tune the load to the gun - just take time with it, and dial it in. I personally wouldn't use pellets because of this, and would go with measured-by-weight loose powder instead. Build those charges at home and take them to the range in their own vials/containers, and the range sessions go much quicker.

 

[wyosam]

No, I think they’re stuck in the 1980s. Caliber restriction doesn’t limit anything. I recently had a CPW manager tell me that .45s weren’t up to the task of killing elk and moose ethically.

I have no doubt they offer a great many advantages. Killing things isn’t hard. A PRB will get it done. 45 caliber bullets offer ballistic advantages that don’t add anything to what they are trying to do (limit range as intended) a lighter, smaller bullet flies better and drifts less in the wind. The reason they don’t allow sabots isn’t because smaller diameter bullets don’t kill effectively. You could build a 40 (or .375, etc) that would probably be even better yet. Heck, it’s rockslide, build a .224 muzzle loader around the 77tmk and you’d be ready for any ML hunt on the planet.


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[ElDiablito]

You could build a 40 (or .375, etc) that would probably be even better yet. Heck, it’s rockslide, build a .224 muzzle loader around the 77tmk and you’d be ready for any ML hunt on the planet.

Lots of guys are shooting .40s and experimenting with .30 sml muzzys. I have a Knight .40 Peregrine that will shoot a .40 240 gr bullet at over 3000 fps with bh209.

 

[RockAndSage]

Lots of guys are shooting .40s and experimenting with .30 sml muzzys. I have a Knight .40 Peregrine that will shoot a .40 240 gr bullet at over 3000 fps with bh209.

Man that is smokin'. What charge of BH209, if you don't mind me asking?