Get Better Mule Deer Hunting

[S.Clancy]

Thanks for sharing. Had heard of this, but couldn’t find more information. Any idea who’s behind it, if they’re doing any sort of public meetings/comments ect?


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It's a group of citizens from across the state, every region (I'm one of them). We're ramping up for the legislation season for implementation of mandatory reporting, but the bulk will be thru the commission process. Feel free to comment on the proposal, we're all ears. We'll be putting up data we used during the draft process on the blog soon also.

 

[Jake Larsen]

One thing I think that's missed in this overall conversation, and the point of @robby denning suggesting some Nov. hunting would be good in Idaho, is that the average hunter sees relatively the same quality of bucks on a Montana General as they do in an Idaho or Wyoming General hunt (including like a G or H) UNLESS folks are putting in the work to scout before season and are well-versed in glassing.

Mule deer populations are always an age pyramid and there are always a ton more bucks in ages 1-3 than 4+, no matter if you hunt it to oblivion or not.

For General tags, I scout a bunch, so I enjoy good hunting in the areas I know there are mature bucks but in my community, the average hunter believes there are no bucks left in Wyoming, even though we have a 6-day rifle season (Oct. 15-20) with a 4-pt APR. Folks put miles on their boots or vehicles around outside of prime times and largely don't put their face to their optics.

To @robby denning 's point, I really wish we had a big longer season in some places in Wyoming right now, because vocal crummy hunters want to see more bucks, and there's a huge movement to go LQ even though where I live we have a short season and an APR.

The same happens in LQ areas. Folks who hunt LQ usually demand more tag further cuts even when there are 50 or less tags in the unit (area 90, 87 and 130 late are three that I scout/guide that come to mind in WY).

TLDR; unless mother nature plays nice with population recruitment, it really does not feel like you will ever satisfy the average hunter's perception of their experience, no matter if you're only hunting October, have a 4-pt APR, or go full LQ. And I think your final comment here sums it up nicely - the whole West is in the same boat no matter the management strategy.

Agree with your assessment of WY, esp the western region. I grew up in WY, and know locals there who swear every deer in the unit is dead, while buddies are sending me photos of big deer haha. Further limiting that season/tags could take away one of the best reasonably accessible buck hunts in the west.

Your point about skillset/glassing is a good one. I actually have wondered if an Oct season wouldn’t force more Montanans to learn to use glass correctly. The average hunter I know, even pretty good ones, have no idea how to use glass. All they’ve ever done is hunt elk or rut hunt deer.


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[Jaden Bales]

Agree with your assessment of WY, esp the western region. I grew up in WY, and know locals there who swear every deer in the unit is dead, while buddies are sending me photos of big deer haha. Further limiting that season/tags could take away one of the best reasonably accessible buck hunts in the west.

Your point about skillset/glassing is a good one. I actually have wondered if an Oct season wouldn’t force more Montanans to learn to use glass correctly. The average hunter I know, even pretty good ones, have no idea how to use glass. All they’ve ever done is hunt elk or rut hunt deer.


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Haha. If October seasons force guys to use glass correctly, I haven't seen it anywhere I've hunted.

It seems like guys in the NW corner of Montana who go high and scout are turning up some dandies in those early rifle hunts, but I don't hardly know any Montanans who scout prior to season. Do you? Or is it because folks rely on the migration and rut to bring out the bucks in different places?

 

[Jake Larsen]

It's a group of citizens from across the state, every region (I'm one of them). We're ramping up for the legislation season for implementation of mandatory reporting, but the bulk will be thru the commission process. Feel free to comment on the proposal, we're all ears. We'll be putting up data we used during the draft process on the blog soon also.

I read the website. Like some of what I’m seeing.

Any thoughts of pairing up with some industry big names? No matter what your opinion of them, R Newberg, Meat Eater crew, ect gets a lot of eyeballs, attention, which ultimately can put a lot pressure on the commission. I know for sure that at least Newberg has discussed this issue recently on HT #254. Was that this group?

I understand wanting to maintain a lower profile, if that’s indeed the case with the founding members. But it also makes the odds of getting a change far less viable IMO.


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[S.Clancy]

I read the website. Like some of what I’m seeing.

Any thoughts of pairing up with some industry big names? No matter what your opinion of them, R Newberg, Meat Eater crew, ect gets a lot of eyeballs, attention, which ultimately can put a lot pressure on the commission. I know for sure that at least Newberg has discussed this issue recently on HT #254. Was that this group?

I understand wanting to maintain a lower profile, if that’s indeed the case with the founding members. But it also makes the odds of getting a change far less viable IMO.


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We've been on one of Randy's podcasts, one of MeatEater's (Cal's Week in Review) and Eastman's podcast. We hope to do more in the future.

 

[Jake Larsen]

Haha. If October seasons force guys to use glass correctly, I haven't seen it anywhere I've hunted.

It seems like guys in the NW corner of Montana who go high and scout are turning up some dandies in those early rifle hunts, but I don't hardly know any Montanans who scout prior to season. Do you? Or is it because folks rely on the migration and rut to bring out the bucks in different places?

I’m the only person I know of in SW Montana that seriously scouts. For a handful of years, we opened closer to Oct 15 which was actually good for me. Killed my best deer on or close to opener, before they move. These last few years with opener in late Oct, my scouting has become less and less effective in terms of following individual deer. Still useful in determining buck numbers and if there’s older deer in the drainage. But yes, everyone else I know of just waits until the 10th-20th for the snow/rut to concentrate the bucks, then goes for a walk with their rifle.

I know one guy who grew up in the NW part of the state and guided up there for many years. There’s a couple guys getting after it. They need some burns in that country to open it up for glassing. Much of it is so thick it’s difficult to hunt


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[Jake Larsen]

We've been on one of Randy's podcasts, one of MeatEater's (Cal's Week in Review) and Eastman's podcast. We hope to do more in the future.

Good deal I’ll check them out. From what I’ve seen locally, it’s very difficult to drum up much enthusiasm for mule deer in MT unfortunately. There’s just not a deer hunting culture in this state, at least not anywhere I’ve spent time.

One of the issues of having very very few trophy deer on the landscape. Robby and Travis have both talked about that a few times, and I totally agree. Just knowing they’re out there is a big deal, and having enough that younger hunters occasionally see one. Likely the difference between indifference toward buck hunting, or lifelong buck hunting addicts.


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[Jaden Bales]

It's a group of citizens from across the state, every region (I'm one of them). We're ramping up for the legislation season for implementation of mandatory reporting, but the bulk will be thru the commission process. Feel free to comment on the proposal, we're all ears. We'll be putting up data we used during the draft process on the blog soon also.

I listened to your podcast with Randy! It was really good!

One thing I was curious about is how y'alls group may want to manage possible public outcry with worse hunting experiences when days per harvest nearly double in October seasons, even though the bucks may be there, just harder to find.

I admit, I'm cherry-picking the line on the website used to suggest it's getting tougher to find mule deer in the blog, "the amount of time it takes to harvest an animal is growing," but its front of my mind right now.

Wyoming averaged 12.2 days per harvest in 2023, while Montana only averaged 8 days per hunter in 2023. It was 14.7 days for residents in WY with 9 days for residents in MT.

My thought was just that this group may want to propose a "How to Hunt Mule Deer" series, or some massive education effort to let folks know deer are still there, but its a much tougher hunt.

We struggle with the public perception there is no bucks left in Wyoming with our largely October seasons, but you can drive around and see them now, and I would assume Montana would follow suit, leading to more LQ pushes.

 

[Jake Larsen]

I listened to your podcast with Randy! It was really good!

One thing I was curious about is how y'alls group may want to manage possible public outcry with worse hunting experiences when days per harvest nearly double in October seasons, even though the bucks may be there, just harder to find.

I admit, I'm cherry-picking the line on the website used to suggest it's getting tougher to find mule deer in the blog, "the amount of time it takes to harvest an animal is growing," but its front of my mind right now.

Wyoming averaged 12.2 days per harvest in 2023, while Montana only averaged 8 days per hunter in 2023. It was 14.7 days for residents in WY with 9 days for residents in MT.

My thought was just that this group may want to propose a "How to Hunt Mule Deer" series, or some massive education effort to let folks know deer are still there, but its a much tougher hunt.

We struggle with the public perception there is no bucks left in Wyoming with our largely October seasons, but you can drive around and see them now, and I would assume Montana would follow suit, leading to more LQ pushes.

Maybe Utah is onto something. Restrict weapons, allow hunting at a time when average hunters can see the big deer.

Think about the good ol hay days of big deer in the 60s. Nobody was using glass the way we do now. They were hunting winter range/rut timeframes with a 30-30.


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[S.Clancy]

I listened to your podcast with Randy! It was really good!

One thing I was curious about is how y'alls group may want to manage possible public outcry with worse hunting experiences when days per harvest nearly double in October seasons, even though the bucks may be there, just harder to find.

I admit, I'm cherry-picking the line on the website used to suggest it's getting tougher to find mule deer in the blog, "the amount of time it takes to harvest an animal is growing," but its front of my mind right now.

Wyoming averaged 12.2 days per harvest in 2023, while Montana only averaged 8 days per hunter in 2023. It was 14.7 days for residents in WY with 9 days for residents in MT.

My thought was just that this group may want to propose a "How to Hunt Mule Deer" series, or some massive education effort to let folks know deer are still there, but its a much tougher hunt.

We struggle with the public perception there is no bucks left in Wyoming with our largely October seasons, but you can drive around and see them now, and I would assume Montana would follow suit, leading to more LQ pushes.

I broke it down Residents vs NR in MT. Residents average 9 days, NR 6 days. That is hunting days (successful and unsuccessful) and is statewide.

That harvest data for WY is interesting. They are taking the equivalent of an entire season (WY seasons) to harvest a deer, spread between multiple units obviously.

It's my opinion that most hunters are going to complain regardless, we are trying to address 2 specific phenomena we are seeing in the harvest data by incentivizing whitetail hunting over mule deer with a changed season structure (MT has way more WT on accessible ground than say WY).