It's a group of citizens from across the state, every region (I'm one of them). We're ramping up for the legislation season for implementation of mandatory reporting, but the bulk will be thru the commission process. Feel free to comment on the proposal, we're all ears. We'll be putting up data we used during the draft process on the blog soon also.
Get Better Mule Deer Hunting
- Thread starter robby denning
- Start date
Jake Larsen
WKR
Agree with your assessment of WY, esp the western region. I grew up in WY, and know locals there who swear every deer in the unit is dead, while buddies are sending me photos of big deer haha. Further limiting that season/tags could take away one of the best reasonably accessible buck hunts in the west.
Your point about skillset/glassing is a good one. I actually have wondered if an Oct season wouldn’t force more Montanans to learn to use glass correctly. The average hunter I know, even pretty good ones, have no idea how to use glass. All they’ve ever done is hunt elk or rut hunt deer.
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Jaden Bales
WKR
Haha. If October seasons force guys to use glass correctly, I haven't seen it anywhere I've hunted.
It seems like guys in the NW corner of Montana who go high and scout are turning up some dandies in those early rifle hunts, but I don't hardly know any Montanans who scout prior to season. Do you? Or is it because folks rely on the migration and rut to bring out the bucks in different places?
Jake Larsen
WKR
I read the website. Like some of what I’m seeing.
Any thoughts of pairing up with some industry big names? No matter what your opinion of them, R Newberg, Meat Eater crew, ect gets a lot of eyeballs, attention, which ultimately can put a lot pressure on the commission. I know for sure that at least Newberg has discussed this issue recently on HT #254. Was that this group?
I understand wanting to maintain a lower profile, if that’s indeed the case with the founding members. But it also makes the odds of getting a change far less viable IMO.
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We've been on one of Randy's podcasts, one of MeatEater's (Cal's Week in Review) and Eastman's podcast. We hope to do more in the future.
Jake Larsen
WKR
Haha. If October seasons force guys to use glass correctly, I haven't seen it anywhere I've hunted.
It seems like guys in the NW corner of Montana who go high and scout are turning up some dandies in those early rifle hunts, but I don't hardly know any Montanans who scout prior to season. Do you? Or is it because folks rely on the migration and rut to bring out the bucks in different places?
I’m the only person I know of in SW Montana that seriously scouts. For a handful of years, we opened closer to Oct 15 which was actually good for me. Killed my best deer on or close to opener, before they move. These last few years with opener in late Oct, my scouting has become less and less effective in terms of following individual deer. Still useful in determining buck numbers and if there’s older deer in the drainage. But yes, everyone else I know of just waits until the 10th-20th for the snow/rut to concentrate the bucks, then goes for a walk with their rifle.
I know one guy who grew up in the NW part of the state and guided up there for many years. There’s a couple guys getting after it. They need some burns in that country to open it up for glassing. Much of it is so thick it’s difficult to hunt
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Jake Larsen
WKR
Good deal I’ll check them out. From what I’ve seen locally, it’s very difficult to drum up much enthusiasm for mule deer in MT unfortunately. There’s just not a deer hunting culture in this state, at least not anywhere I’ve spent time.
One of the issues of having very very few trophy deer on the landscape. Robby and Travis have both talked about that a few times, and I totally agree. Just knowing they’re out there is a big deal, and having enough that younger hunters occasionally see one. Likely the difference between indifference toward buck hunting, or lifelong buck hunting addicts.
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Jaden Bales
WKR
I listened to your podcast with Randy! It was really good!
One thing I was curious about is how y'alls group may want to manage possible public outcry with worse hunting experiences when days per harvest nearly double in October seasons, even though the bucks may be there, just harder to find.
I admit, I'm cherry-picking the line on the website used to suggest it's getting tougher to find mule deer in the blog, "the amount of time it takes to harvest an animal is growing," but its front of my mind right now.
Wyoming averaged 12.2 days per harvest in 2023, while Montana only averaged 8 days per hunter in 2023. It was 14.7 days for residents in WY with 9 days for residents in MT.
My thought was just that this group may want to propose a "How to Hunt Mule Deer" series, or some massive education effort to let folks know deer are still there, but its a much tougher hunt.
We struggle with the public perception there is no bucks left in Wyoming with our largely October seasons, but you can drive around and see them now, and I would assume Montana would follow suit, leading to more LQ pushes.
Jake Larsen
WKR
Maybe Utah is onto something. Restrict weapons, allow hunting at a time when average hunters can see the big deer.
Think about the good ol hay days of big deer in the 60s. Nobody was using glass the way we do now. They were hunting winter range/rut timeframes with a 30-30.
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I broke it down Residents vs NR in MT. Residents average 9 days, NR 6 days. That is hunting days (successful and unsuccessful) and is statewide.
That harvest data for WY is interesting. They are taking the equivalent of an entire season (WY seasons) to harvest a deer, spread between multiple units obviously.
It's my opinion that most hunters are going to complain regardless, we are trying to address 2 specific phenomena we are seeing in the harvest data by incentivizing whitetail hunting over mule deer with a changed season structure (MT has way more WT on accessible ground than say WY).
That is a good point. There were a lot of big buck hunters in my dad's generation and those before him. I think enthusiasm for mule deer has waned over time with the decline of mature bucks and reduced quality of the experience due to all the pressure. Most of my dad's friends have given up hunting because of what it has become. I'd also say for these same reasons, and with the increase in elk populations in many areas of the state, mule deer kind of get treated like the red headed stepchild anymore.
cgasner1
WKR
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I’m also one of the guys behind the push for mt change. None of us are hiding by any means all our information is fairly available. If you like where we are heading with this I’d also say it would help to put a bug in the ear of any group you give money to about helping to support this thing. It’s a long up hill haul to get this done and we need all the help we can get.
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Jake Larsen
WKR
@robby denning If I’m hijacking this thread, feel free to delete this post.
@cgasner1 @S.Clancy
After listening to the HT podcast and doing some thinking about Rokcast episodes on this general topic, here’s some thoughts/concerns.
1. What management strategy IS working? My main concern is that there's NO management strategy that seems to be working and still providing good opportunity. Other states have been WAY more proactive than MT, and still seem to have a problem. Maybe not to the same degree as we do, but it seems headed in that direction. I noticed that every proposal for MT was taken from other states management. So in theory, they would yield the same results. I'm not seeing any model states for management. As in, which state or unit is doing things in such a way that most hunters can point to it and say "that's what I want my buck hunting to look like" What’s the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results…If all the MT proposals are copying other states, none of which have had good results, what are we doing here?
2. Utah MIGHT be onto something. At least they’re trying something different. I think about the heyday of the 60s. Rut hunting with very limited gear/effective range. People saw the big deer in those days BUT there was way more to it than just the limited weapons. See next paragraph
3. Don’t want to be doomsday, BUT, can’t help but notice a macro trend here. If a wide range of management strategies across the west are broadly failing to produce satisfactory results, what are we looking at? As Robby has pointed out over and over, the people/organizations that get serious about mule deer seem to all eventually come to the same conclusions. Want more/bigger deer? Create more/better habitat. Winter range carrying capacity on a bad winter year is what manages deer numbers across the west. The studies in the western WY deer herd support this as well. Good habitat yields healthy does, which yields healthy bucks and more twins, which then have maximized potential for antler growth. That being said, is that the macro trend we’re seeing all across the west? If it’s a habitat issue due to macro environmental changes, combined with urban expansion, we might be trying to stop something inevitable. Think about journals of Lewis and Clark. They saw very few mule deer. Bighorn sheep everywhere. Disease, climate and habitat change, ect definitely drives macro trends that we just can’t see in any one lifetime of hunting.
4. Robby or @Travis Hobbs or anybody else: is there anywhere currently in the west that you personally see as having an optimal mix of opportunity and buck quality? Something to use as a management case study? Can we even significantly move the needle in a long term fashion with management? Give me some hope!
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@cgasner1 @S.Clancy
After listening to the HT podcast and doing some thinking about Rokcast episodes on this general topic, here’s some thoughts/concerns.
1. What management strategy IS working? My main concern is that there's NO management strategy that seems to be working and still providing good opportunity. Other states have been WAY more proactive than MT, and still seem to have a problem. Maybe not to the same degree as we do, but it seems headed in that direction. I noticed that every proposal for MT was taken from other states management. So in theory, they would yield the same results. I'm not seeing any model states for management. As in, which state or unit is doing things in such a way that most hunters can point to it and say "that's what I want my buck hunting to look like" What’s the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results…If all the MT proposals are copying other states, none of which have had good results, what are we doing here?
2. Utah MIGHT be onto something. At least they’re trying something different. I think about the heyday of the 60s. Rut hunting with very limited gear/effective range. People saw the big deer in those days BUT there was way more to it than just the limited weapons. See next paragraph
3. Don’t want to be doomsday, BUT, can’t help but notice a macro trend here. If a wide range of management strategies across the west are broadly failing to produce satisfactory results, what are we looking at? As Robby has pointed out over and over, the people/organizations that get serious about mule deer seem to all eventually come to the same conclusions. Want more/bigger deer? Create more/better habitat. Winter range carrying capacity on a bad winter year is what manages deer numbers across the west. The studies in the western WY deer herd support this as well. Good habitat yields healthy does, which yields healthy bucks and more twins, which then have maximized potential for antler growth. That being said, is that the macro trend we’re seeing all across the west? If it’s a habitat issue due to macro environmental changes, combined with urban expansion, we might be trying to stop something inevitable. Think about journals of Lewis and Clark. They saw very few mule deer. Bighorn sheep everywhere. Disease, climate and habitat change, ect definitely drives macro trends that we just can’t see in any one lifetime of hunting.
4. Robby or @Travis Hobbs or anybody else: is there anywhere currently in the west that you personally see as having an optimal mix of opportunity and buck quality? Something to use as a management case study? Can we even significantly move the needle in a long term fashion with management? Give me some hope!
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Jake Larsen
WKR
Didn’t mean to accuse you of hiding, I’m sorry if it came off that way. This is the only social media platform I’m on, so I could have easily missed a public presence from you guys.
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OP
OP
Not hijacking at all, this is why we do this stuff to get people talking.
To answer your last question, and throwing out the word “optimal“ …I would say, Idaho. Although the south east side got hosed by two really bad winters, there’s still opportunity and good bucks to be had (although I can understand NR wouldn’t feel that way with our “OTC” units nonresident distribution system)
Although I feel like we’re too heavily weighted on late buck hunts. I’d rather see those gone and add some dates to the general season so everybody got to enjoy the bigger bucks and not just those who overcome <5% draw odds
Jake Larsen
WKR
I would tend to agree. I’ve always used Idahos season dates especially as an example of a good balance of opportunity and protecting the resource.
What’s your sense of Idaho residents? Do most mule deer hunters in Idaho feel the same way? I ask this to get a feel for public sentiment. Let’s say hypothetically Idaho is doing as good of a job as can be reasonably expected given the current circumstances of winters, climate, urbanization, ect. Is that good enough to satisfy most of the hunters? Or is there always going to be a push for “more more more”
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Jake Larsen
WKR
Utah is trying to implement things like point restrictions where there is already enough data collected to know it has zero lasting impact. This isn't the first time Utah has used long term point restrictions.
I'll argue this is simply a social experiment to see if it makes the average sportsman feel better about opportunity and if it'll worth the wait when they finally draw.
Utah takes the best tags away from the public and sells them to the highest bidder. Some of fhis money in turn is invested in habitat improvement projects. Utah vastly out spends every other state in this regard yet this has failed to produce a notable increase in available tags.
I'd caution against using Utah as a sterling example of management practices.
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OP
OP
Yup,
When we gave up our November dates, we were promised more and bigger bucks but within 10 years, the biologists who were part of the change, Ted Chu (his opinion was hunter perception was the problem because they couldn’t find big bucks in October) & Daryl Meintz even admitted that the flip-flop of the deer seasons to early did not work as intended.
But by that time we had our late draw hunts expand all over the state and so that’s where all the opportunity went for the bigger bucks.
Travis sent me pictures just in the last 24 hours of a. 30 inch buck in an otc unit that he just saw yesterday. But most guys in that unit are screaming for change because they don’t see those bucks during hunting season. It’s really hard to see them in a no-high-country unit in October.
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Jake Larsen
WKR
Edit: @robby denning
This is an answer to your response as well
@S.Clancy I’d like to hear your thoughts on this as well. It’s the answer I would have written to your response.
Absolutely agree with you on point restrictions, and some of the other specifics of Utah management.
I should have been more specific. I was referring to this idea of seriously limiting method of take, therefore reducing lethality of the average hunter, especially at times/places where deer are very vulnerable. Maybe It’s a way to maintain opportunity (keeps everybody happy including me) while also still protecting the resource (more big deer).
For MT specifically, maybe that looks like a fairly available late season muzzy rut hunt, or maybe this open sights on a rifle concept. Something to where AVERAGE guys have a chance to go see and hunt a big deer without just hammering them every year. I think this might be the key to keeping hunter sentiment high. Guys that scout a lot and know how to use glass are going to find big deer that get them exited even when conditions are rough and management is less than optimal. But average guys aren’t seeing those big bucks. If there was a way for them to be seen on the landscape, I think it’d go a long ways in terms of average hunter satisfaction.
I think about it like this: let’s say Idaho hypothetically has the best possible management strategy (by pure numbers) of good buck quality to opportunity. If 99% of deer hunters never see a big buck because of the season dates, then 99% of deer hunters are going to think the buck hunting sucks in their state/unit, and push for change. What if there was a way to get more of those guys to see and hunt big deer, but not actually kill a lot of them?
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