Gaps in specialized ammo

[bluetick78]

I know I've posted a few times here about turkey loads for different guns. I'm starting to see though, that there's some really obvious blank spots in ammo selection. The 2 I've become aware of recently are 2 3/4" 12 gauge turkey loadings, and lead loads for turkeys in 16 gauge. I work with, and associate with, a good number of people that regularly hunt turkeys in at least a few western states. Most of them own an old fixed- choke gun in 12 or 16 gauge that they'd like to use for spring gobblers. Unless you want to spend $80-$100 for 5 TSS shells ( that may or may not pattern), you are stuck with pheasant loads that typically won't throw turkey-acceptable patterns past 25 or 30 yds. In 2 3/4" 12 gauge, most manufacturers only make their lowest-end loadings, and they only pattern about like a pheasant load.
It makes me wonder if we'll always be stuck using $20/ apeice TSS loadings, or hoping for 25 yd shots with pheasant loads. I know some sub-gauge (410 & 28) have stolen the spotlight lately, but with TSS costs being astronomical I think a lot of "average" hunters are going to go back to lead. Seems like there's a real gap there that manufactures could capitalize on, or am I thinking the old shotgun crowd is bigger than it really is?

 

[dtrkyman]

With the price of TSS some hand loads are coming around in nickel plated lead, maybe contact them, check with Windy Hill precision.

 

[FLS]

Nitro Cartidge Company

 

[Skerhunter]

Very small market!

Average guy is going to find some 4’s/5’s that are cheap because they still work at reasonable distances. Guys that want to shoot further are going to have dedicated guns and TSS ammo.

 

[Macintosh]

1) yes, you are overestimating the size of the old shotgun crowd. Or overestimating their desire to pay $20/shot for fancy turkey-specific ammo. Or both—its really the overlap of those two factors that is driving any demand for what you are talking about. In combination I think its a tiny demand.

2) most of the guns in 12/2.75” and 16ga are either older guns that are damaged by hard shot so it isnt appropriate in the first place, or are $$$$ specialty guns that arent what people will use for turkeys anyway. I think this is more the issue. This crowd is shooting bismuth ammo for waterfowl because it is soft-enough for the older barrels while still being heavier than steel, and b/c steel is hard enough to damage many of those guns. Tungsten is harder than steel.

I would try some bismuth waterfowl ammo in 6’s. Being harder than lead it’ll likely pattern tighter.

 

[N2TRKYS]

See if Winchester Longbeard XR has an offering for your chambering.

 

[Amos Keeto]

I know I've posted a few times here about turkey loads for different guns. I'm starting to see though, that there's some really obvious blank spots in ammo selection. The 2 I've become aware of recently are 2 3/4" 12 gauge turkey loadings, and lead loads for turkeys in 16 gauge. I work with, and associate with, a good number of people that regularly hunt turkeys in at least a few western states. Most of them own an old fixed- choke gun in 12 or 16 gauge that they'd like to use for spring gobblers. Unless you want to spend $80-$100 for 5 TSS shells ( that may or may not pattern), you are stuck with pheasant loads that typically won't throw turkey-acceptable patterns past 25 or 30 yds. In 2 3/4" 12 gauge, most manufacturers only make their lowest-end loadings, and they only pattern about like a pheasant load.
It makes me wonder if we'll always be stuck using $20/ apeice TSS loadings, or hoping for 25 yd shots with pheasant loads. I know some sub-gauge (410 & 28) have stolen the spotlight lately, but with TSS costs being astronomical I think a lot of "average" hunters are going to go back to lead. Seems like there's a real gap there that manufactures could capitalize on, or am I thinking the old shotgun crowd is bigger than it really is?

WOW! Missed this thread!
I'm a "16 gauge freak"!
Im a "lead shot" freak!
... AND ...
A standard, 2.75" "ammo freak"!

From the time I was allowed to hunt solo, I was taught "... Pattern density kills, not shot size! ..."

First off! I have "OFS"! (that's Old Fart Syndrome!)
I'm not about to spend $10/shell for ammo!
YES! I want to kill a turkey, but not to the point of paying that much for ammo! I'm a tightwad! Not a cheapskate!
Then, TSS aside, I also refused to pay double figure dollars for "turkey specific" ammo. You only get 5 to 10 rounds! A box of twenty-five 2.75" ammo is less money!
I have killed "many" turkeys with plain old 2.75" ammo with a load of #8's or #7.5's!
Twelve AND 16 gauge!
I'm a "recoil weenie"! I'm not paying for "magnum" ammo just to get kicked senseless!
I don't shoot anything bigger than #6 shot because I've got ages old ammo with 6, 7.5 and 8 shot. Im not tossing it out!

NOTE: I'm big on using #8's for turkeys because of a denser pattern. The new TSS craze lauds the use of #9 shot!
Why?
Pattern density!

 

[Macintosh]

See if Winchester Longbeard XR has an offering for your chambering.

There was a recent thread specifically on this, sounds like its also either hard to find or not available.

B

Thread '2.75" Winchester Longbeard'

Mar 24, 2026

I have a specific need for some Winchester Longbeard shells in 2 3/4". It's for an old shotgun that is probably not suitable for TSS ( nor do I want to spend $80-$100 for 5 shells). The gun only takes 2 3/4". Winchester's website shows it as an active item, but finding any of them locally or online has proved fruitless.
Do any of you know where to find a box or 2 of these? Or have some you'd be willing to part with?

• bluetick78
• Replies: 27
• Forum: Game Birds

 

[eamyrick]

In two years I’ve killed two gobblers with 2 rounds of Apex #9 TSS. I used 5-6 rounds to pattern it 3 years ago but the 1-2 rounds a year at $35 bucks is a small cost compared to everything else that goes into a hunt. Shot my bird this year at easy upland load distant but last year the bird was hung up further. The extra confidence of TSS is worth the cost.

 

[Macintosh]

The new TSS craze lauds the use of #9 shot!
Why?
Pattern density!

Well, not entirely. TSS is 60% denser than lead, so a #9 tss shot penetrates much deeper than an equivalent lead shot, and retains velocity at much longer range. On top of that it also patterns tighter than lead due to being much harder. And then obviously smaller shot has more pellets per. So the reason people recommend such small shot with tss is a lot more than simply pattern density, its density combined with mass and hardness. I have no doubtnit works for you, but Ive never heard anyone recommend such small lead shot for turkeys. In lead, sizes 6, 5 or 4 was what nearly every resource Ive ever seen recommended.

But yeah, lead shot still works. Maybe TSS doesnt warrant the cost for some. or maybe they just dont have the option.

 

[RockAndSage]

Well, not entirely. TSS is 60% denser than lead, so a #9 tss shot penetrates much deeper than an equivalent lead shot, and retains velocity at much longer range. On top of that it also patterns tighter than lead due to being much harder. And then obviously smaller shot has more pellets per. So the reason people recommend such small shot with tss is a lot more than simply pattern density, its density combined with mass and hardness. I have no doubtnit works for you, but Ive never heard anyone recommend such small lead shot for turkeys. In lead, sizes 6, 5 or 4 was what nearly every resource Ive ever seen recommended.

But yeah, lead shot still works. Maybe TSS doesnt warrant the cost for some. or maybe they just dont have the option.

Denser, and with less surface area, both leading to extremely good penetration. Deer and hogs are getting taken down with BB and T shot, coyotes down to #4 and even #6s.

The deciding factor for me on TSS is shot opportunity. I might hike several high-desert, rugged miles in the September sun just to get one or two opportunities on sage grouse, or out through the snow to remote, winter mudholes for one or two opportunities on waterfowl. In those cases, 100% TSS. But on dove, quail, chukar, rabbits, etc, where there are plenty of opportunities, it's lead.

The only time I've been disappointed with TSS performance has been a couple of bizarre cases of #9s hitting birds, dropping them stone-cold "dead", and then a minute or two later the bird wakes up and takes off. Happened 2 or 3 times with 9s, never at all with 7s. Best I can guess is the 7s are breaking bone and also causing better blood loss, but the 9's are poking holes in bones but leaving them structurally intact, with slower bleeds, while just temporarily shocking the nervous system. Obviously a #9 to the brain is a different issue, which is why I think guys are getting great results with 9's on turkey. My experiences were with passing birds, so body shots. Plenty came down to 9s, but those few that took off were enough to have me switch up to the 7s. And those hit hard.

 

[Amos Keeto]

"... Denser, and with less surface area, both leading to extremely good penetration. ..."

"... Obviously a #9 to the brain is a different issue, which is why I think guys are getting great results with 9's on turkey. ..."

Both points I've made pre TSS!
1) less surface area (bearing surface?), easier penetration
2) it only takes a single (ONE) pellet, regardless of size, to the brain/CNS to take a turkey.

The more shot you put on target, the greater the chance for a fatal pellet strike.

Shooters always want to "test" turkey loads by shooting at a ten (10") inch circle and counting the pellet hits!
A turkey's head is about the size of a quail.
Test your load on a two (2") inch circle!
THAT will tell you if your choke, gun, ammo will work on turkeys!

Before you get the idea I don't like TSS, think again.
1) If TSS wasn't so expensive, I'd probably swap over myself!
2) TSS has extended the effective range of shotgun ammo to the point sloppy hunters will continually push the limits of TSS to ridiculous limits.

 

[LongWayAround]

We did a lot of pheasant hunting when I was a kid. One of my dad's buddies was an older guy who was always into niche guns.

I shot my first turkey with one of his guns, a Parker side-by-side. I don't exactly recall the gauge but I want to say it was a 20. I had no idea the value of that gun at the time, though I do remember it was very nice.

That guy was always shooting a 16 or 28, something odd. He was the only person I have ever run into that would possibly have wanted a 16ga turkey load.

There is just no real market for that. If I wanted to shoot a turkey with one, I would just buy a pheasant load. Same-same dead turkey...

I think there are quite a few 2.75" chambered 12s out there. But again, I would just buy a box of pheasant loads and call it a day.

Thinking back to those days of pheasant hunting, I seem to recall Fiochi had about the heaviest payload of the shells we commonly shot. A 2.75" load of copper plated 5 or 6 shot would kill any turkey at a reasonable distance.

 

[bluetick78]

We did a lot of pheasant hunting when I was a kid. One of my dad's buddies was an older guy who was always into niche guns.

I shot my first turkey with one of his guns, a Parker side-by-side. I don't exactly recall the gauge but I want to say it was a 20. I had no idea the value of that gun at the time, though I do remember it was very nice.

That guy was always shooting a 16 or 28, something odd. He was the only person I have ever run into that would possibly have wanted a 16ga turkey load.

There is just no real market for that. If I wanted to shoot a turkey with one, I would just buy a pheasant load. Same-same dead turkey...

I think there are quite a few 2.75" chambered 12s out there. But again, I would just buy a box of pheasant loads and call it a day.

Thinking back to those days of pheasant hunting, I seem to recall Fiochi had about the heaviest payload of the shells we commonly shot. A 2.75" load of copper plated 5 or 6 shot would kill any turkey at a reasonable distance.

I would've felt the same about the 16 gauge, but judging by the fact that almost all the manufacturers making 16ga TSS loadings are sold out completely every year March- May; I guess I'm wrong. I realize that there are a few new shotguns being made in 16, but I'm guessing most of those shells are being sold to hunters with 50+ year old guns....at least according to the comments on the manufacturer websites. I've killed 4 turkeys in my life with an Ithaca 37 16 gauge using Federal prairie storm, and I know a half dozen other hunters that have used a 16 with similar "pheasant" ammo to take turkeys in old guns. I realize a 3.5" 12 gauge with a hefty dose of lead 5's or a 20 slinging 1.5 oz of #9 TSS is the easy button for 50 yd shots on stubborn longbeards, but those guys aren't the only ones hunting. I killed a bird a few days ago with an Ithaca 2 3/4" only 12 gauge with Kent Fastlead #6's. I tried killing that bird multiple times over the course of a few days, but he'd always hang up around 60 yds due to terrain and fences. I finally did a 2-mile loop starting at 3:30 am and got him to 19 yds. The upland lead shells did fine at that range, but I would've been more comfortable using something with a heavier payload, better wad, buffering, ect. If I'd have been packing my 3.5" Benelli, it would've been a dead bird on day one, but there's something cool about shooting a smart bird with the same gun that my great-grandfather fed his family with.

 

[Macintosh]

To be fair, a 3.5” 12ga with a good turkey choke and a little patterning homework is likely to be close to a 60 yard gun with lead ammo. You dont NEED tss with a cannon like that (even if you want to snipe turkeys well outside the range where they've committed to come to you).

Also, I would change your last thought to read

there's something cool about shooting a smart bird with the same [equipment and required level of hunting proficiency] that my great-grandfather fed his family with.

is it really the same gun if you add 50% to its effective range by utilizing space-age shot? I get the sentiment, and I know the obvious answer, but to a degree I think its worth poking a little fun to make the point. If you really want the nostalgia of the old gun that grampa carried, then carry it exactly as he would have, lead ammo and all. For an added touch of reality try it with a fiber wad!
In addition, shooting tss out of a tightly choked older gun has a very real possibility of damaging the gun by bulging the barrel, splitting the choke section, or popping the rib if it has one.

Fwiw a 16ga is pretty much identical in capability to a 3” 20ga, possibly better due to the shorter shot column. It is easily a 30-35 yard gun with a regular full choke and lead shot. At that range use 6’s or maybe even 7’s, (or smaller according to the guy above, I cant verify) and DONT use a high velocity load. You dont need big shot or high velocity at under 40 yards. That velocity deforms the shot more and equals a looser pattern. When I was super into shotguns I actually had pretty poor performance from kent and fiocci loads because despite it being plated it was fairly soft shot. Maybe thats changed, I dont know. But Id be looking for a low velocity (1000-1165 fps) 1 1/4oz load of 6’s or 7’s, and I bet it patterns tighter than the high velocity stuff.

If you have to have a tighter pattern I see a pile of hevi-bismuth waterfowl loads available on ammoseek. That is 1 1/8oz of bismuth 6’s. Being harder than lead and almost as dense it should pattern tighter, and while its expensive its manageable-enough to try, and it’s still soft enough to not damage your grandfathers gun.

 

[bluetick78]

To be fair, a 3.5” 12ga with a good turkey choke and a little patterning homework is likely to be close to a 60 yard gun with lead ammo. You dont NEED tss with a cannon like that.

Also, I would change you last thought to read


is it really the same gun if you add 50% to its effective range by utilizing space-age shot? I get the sentiment, and I know the obvious answer, but to a degree I think its worth poking a little fun to make the point. If you really want the nostalgia of the old gun that grampa carried, then carry it exactly as he would have, lead ammo and all. For an added touch of reality try it with a fiber wad!
In addition, shooting tss out of a tightly choked older gun has a very real possibility of damaging the gun by bulging the barrel, splitting the choke section, or popping the rib if it has one.

Fwiw a 16ga is pretty much identical in capability to a 3” 20ga, possibly better due to the shorter shot column. It is easily a 30-35 yard gun with a regular full choke and lead shot. At that range use 6’s or maybe even 7’s, (or smaller according to the guy above, I cant verify) and DONT use a high velocity load. You dont need big shot or high velocity at under 40 yards. That velocity deforms the shot more and equals a looser pattern. When I was super into shotguns I actually had pretty poor performance from kent and fiocci loads because despite it being plated it was fairly soft shot. Maybe thats changed, I dont know. But Id be looking for a low velocity (1000-1165 fps) 1 1/4oz load of 6’s or 7’s, and I bet it patterns tighter than the high velocity stuff.

If you have to have a tighter pattern I see a pile of hevi-bismuth waterfowl loads available on ammoseek. That is 1 1/8oz of bismuth 6’s. Being harder than lead and almost as dense it should pattern tighter, and while its expensive its manageable-enough to try, and it’s still soft enough to not damage your grandfathers gun.

I've been through the gauntlet of ammo with old, fixed- choke guns trying to get better patterns. I guess I'm just wishing that Winchester hadn't discontinued their 2.75" Longbeard in 12 gauge. I also wish they'd make a 16 gauge flavor, maybe in #6 shot. I won't shoot TSS out of my old shotguns for a variety of reasons, but my kids use it in modern guns (410 & 20) with good results. Bottom line is...I'm done chasing the newest space age shells, guns, tech, or whatever else it is that helps people kill birds even if they kinda still suck at hunting. I like proximity to my quarry, whether it's got feathers or fur. And no...if you add 50% to a guns capabilities, it's no longer the same gun. I enjoy using the same guns my dad, grandpa, and great-grandfather used mostly because they are perfectly capable, serviceable, usable, and nostalgic. But....I would like to use Longbeard XR's in those guns. That's where I draw the line I guess. My hypocrisy knows no bounds.

 

[Macintosh]

This is pure speculation on my part, but Im not convinced that longbeard xr isnt just bismuth shot with a different label.

I base this on a few things:
1) xr was introduced at a very similar time frame to when winchester first started selling co-branded bismuth shells.
2) it is clearly harder than lead, like bismuth
3) longbeard xr was (and is?) sold as being compatible with chokes and guns for “lead shot only”, just like bismuth.

I dont know this to be true, and it could very well be a pile of crap, and I wouldnt even expect winchester to admit this. Just a guess on my part. Its why I suggested trying the hevi-bismuth, which IS available.

 

[UpTop]

I think people have entirely over complicated what it takes to kill a turkey. Is it fun to tinker with and find the best absolute pattern? Sure. But it’s also completely ridiculous and unnecessary. You 100% can efficient and effectively kill turkeys with plain Jane birdshot loads all day long. The only way to get a 16 on the bandwagon is to get enough people to make it the next “cool” thing like the .410 and 28 have become.

 

[Macintosh]

Unneccessary? Absolutely 100%, unquestionably true.

Ridiculous? Maybe if you’re actually good at turkey hunting. For the rest of us it makes a pretty big difference. Can argue if thats good or not, where it is/isnt worth it, etc, but being able to easily, unequivocally shoot past the range where a wary turkey “hangs up” without needing field artillery to do it makes a HUGE difference for us mediocre types. Doesnt look at all ridiculous to me.

 

[eamyrick]

Unneccessary? Absolutely 100%, unquestionably true.

Ridiculous? Maybe if you’re actually good at turkey hunting. For the rest of us it makes a pretty big difference. Can argue if thats good or not, where it is/isnt worth it, etc, but being able to easily, unequivocally shoot past the range where a wary turkey “hangs up” without needing field artillery to do it makes a HUGE difference for us mediocre types. Doesnt look at all ridiculous to me.

Pretty spot on. Also you can’t be “good” at turkey hunting. They are so dumb they often come across as cunning rocket scientist. TSS is like shooting a rifle 350-450. It just adds some field lethality like having a scope that dials. I got into the safe last night and counted 18 rounds of apex tss. Made me feel old because I can probably kill turkeys for the next decade without buying anymore ammo.