Form struck someone’s nerve

[WeiserBucks]

I am home sick as a dog, and around 100-plus people asked if I had listened to it yet.

You know 100 people? I know about 7.

 

[Ryan Avery]

You know 100 people? I know about 7.

They are acquaintances.....

 

[hunterjmj]

I don't know why this all started. I made a thread and pointed out something he said in a previous episode but JVB has been on a crusade lately. There's been a solid mention of small caliber hate for months in almost every episode.

If you think about it, the majority of his paid sponsors have something to lose with this talk. Leupold and Barnes most notably.

It's pretty shitty that this kind of "fake news" BS is so prevelant in this industry but it's literally been built upon it. I chalk that up to the magazines, one of which JVB works for.

I don't dislike the guy per se, he seems like he could be a good dude. But much like politics, we've been programmed to think that if someone thinks different than you, they're the enemy. We all can have different opinions and still be respectful and friendly. But shots get fired when it starts to dip into the checkbook.

Science is no longer used as it should be and it can also be bought and paid for. The irony is it's literally the solution. This is what bothers me the most as I've devoted most of my adult life to science. It's not subjective in the least bit.

Question: Do match bullets of smaller calibers kill quick and ethically.

Findings: Based on all data presented in the .223 thread, I think there would have to be extreme bias if one said anything other than "yes".

Cut and dry. I started as one of the guys that didn't think it could be true. However, the data shows something different. People must be able to interpret data and form conclusions regardless if the outcome matches the hypothesis. This is called being an intelligent adult.

I think he mentions something to the sort that guys shooting small calibers aren't being honest. Small caliber hunters loose more than they admit or maybe he thinks they really aren't using small calibers. Not sure but at the end of the podcast he mentions how this data can only be gathered by experts so basically common hunters using small calibers don't know what they are doing. At least that's how I understood what he said.

 

[WeiserBucks]

I think he mentions something to the sort that guys shooting small calibers aren't being honest.

I'm not here to call anyone a liar but hunters as a group are incredibly full of shit. Don't get me started on fisherman.

 

[hunterjmj]

I'm not here to call anyone a liar but hunters as a group are incredibly full of shit. Don't get me started on fisherman.

Every group imaginable is full of sheet. In this discussion I think jvb may be referring to the 223 thread.

 

[hereinaz]

I don't know why this all started. I made a thread and pointed out something he said in a previous episode but JVB has been on a crusade lately. There's been a solid mention of small caliber hate for months in almost every episode.

If you think about it, the majority of his paid sponsors have something to lose with this talk. Leupold and Barnes most notably.

It's pretty shitty that this kind of "fake news" BS is so prevelant in this industry but it's literally been built upon it. I chalk that up to the magazines, one of which JVB works for.

I don't dislike the guy per se, he seems like he could be a good dude. But much like politics, we've been programmed to think that if someone thinks different than you, they're the enemy. We all can have different opinions and still be respectful and friendly. But shots get fired when it starts to dip into the checkbook.

Science is no longer used as it should be and it can also be bought and paid for. The irony is it's literally the solution. This is what bothers me the most as I've devoted most of my adult life to science. It's not subjective in the least bit.

Question: Do match bullets of smaller calibers kill quick and ethically.

Findings: Based on all data presented in the .223 thread, I think there would have to be extreme bias if one said anything other than "yes".

Cut and dry. I started as one of the guys that didn't think it could be true. However, the data shows something different. People must be able to interpret data and form conclusions regardless if the outcome matches the hypothesis. This is called being an intelligent adult.

The thing is, JVB classifies his opinion as the only credible one, and uses the extreme situations, hyperbole, and anecdotes to draw conclusions like match bullets will fail 1 in 10.

Form does much of the same with broad strokes, based on his opinions and biases.

Not seeing where the differences between opinion and truth are leads to the crazy threads and disputes.

I mean, I have beat the crap out of my rifle with a Leupold MK 5 and a Rem 700 trigger but it is on the verge of negligent discharge and losing zero all the time…

If I didn’t see the difference I would get in fights all the time, but I would rather go shoot with pretty much everyone on all the forums, cause we are gun and hunting people first.

 

[hereinaz]

I'm not here to call anyone a liar but hunters as a group are incredibly full of shit. Don't get me started on fisherman.

Hahahha, wouldn’t be any fun in camp if we weren’t!

 

[WeiserBucks]

Every group imaginable is full of sheet.

The difference is that hunters aren't typically succeeding or failing in front of everyone like other pursuits in life. Hunters are mostly very secretive vs sports with spectators.

If you fail in drag racing, everyone sees what happens. If you fail in hunting, people only know what you tell them.

I'm not bashing the 223 guys, I have no experience with 223 and therefore no valid personal opinion.

 

[S.Clancy]

 

[slatebuilder]

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I am home sick as a dog

This was me the week of thanksgiving, covid got me. Luckily the Sunday after I was still able to kill a freezer bull with my Oatmilk Latte baby bullet. Somehow it didn’t bounce off.

 

[Southernfried]

JVB is the wallop authority. Just ask him.

Side note, I've never heard anyone ever tell a story from 30+ years ago with such detail and confidence. It's almost like he's... making up stories to make money? I don't think Joseph Smith would approve.

LOL at 58 my friends love the stories I tell, cause every time I tell one from years ago, its always different, with a different ending and with different people lol cause In my mind it is highly accurate, real world, I have bad bad CRS lol and the older I get, the worse it gets lol

 

[Ucsdryder]

This was me the week of thanksgiving, covid got me. Luckily the Sunday after I was still able to kill a freezer bull with my Oatmilk Latte baby bullet. Somehow it didn’t bounce off.


View attachment 802472

Why would it bounce off a jack rabbit?

 

[bergie]

I'm not bashing the 223 guys, I have no experience with 223 and therefore no valid personal opinion.

Cannot express how much this resonates with me. After reading through (some) of the threads I am intrigued with .223 performance but have only archery hunted elk for the last 10 years so its kind of a moot point to me to try on large game. I get tired of the fanboying on this site as much as I grow tired of the guys who will argue without evidence that a .223 cannot kill an elk.

What sucks is the clown the OP is talking about does absolutely nothing for me except push be farther away from the middle and into the .223 camp. Can anyone listen to more than five minutes of his podcast and not want to drive into oncoming traffic?

Maybe I will order some 82 grain ELD-Ms and use them on my next extra doe tag to get some experience for myself.

 

[hereinaz]

Hahahaha, just heard him talk about Gunwerks Davidson using 7mm Berger that penetrated too much before opening so he shot the elk shoulder but then went to ELDm and started shooting behind the shoulder because they opened too soon.

Nothing he said about Davidson using match bullets could lead to the conclusion that they don’t kill.

I can verify that a 7mm Berger bullet is devestating on “elk shoulders” even after bleeding off velocity out at 1000 yards.

But, don’t hit the rut armored skin/shoulder muscle/uber hard shoulder knuckle with it cause the match bullet won’t make it through to the vitals.

Also, his anecdote about a 220 grain 30-06 bullet that penetrated 7” quartering between the blade and shoulder bone on a little deer and caught in the offside hide at 70 yards.

All his anecdotes of “bullets do unpredictable things” the critter died right away, except one that went 200 yard without a blood trail and it was the 77 gr TMK he recommended for a kid to shoot on a big mule deer. Also, the shot was “perfect.”

Didn’t hear any “it failed and we shot it with something else” and we found the failed 77 TMK.

 

[hereinaz]

Cannot express how much this resonates with me. After reading through (some) of the threads I am intrigued with .223 performance but have only archery hunted elk for the last 10 years so its kind of a moot point to me to try on large game. I get tired of the fanboying on this site as much as I grow tired of the guys who will argue without evidence that a .223 cannot kill an elk.

What sucks is the clown the OP is talking about does absolutely nothing for me except push be farther away from the middle and into the .223 camp. Can anyone listen to more than five minutes of his podcast and not want to drive into oncoming traffic?

Maybe I will order some 82 grain ELD-Ms and use them on my next extra doe tag to get some experience for myself.

Car wrecks are terrible but it’s hard to look away sometimes.

 

[mt terry d]

Question: Do match bullets of smaller calibers kill quick and ethically.

Findings: Based on all data presented in the .223 thread, I think there would have to be extreme bias if one said anything other than "yes".

It’s not just the bullet or the 223. It’s every thing combined; shoot ability, staying in the scope, follow ups, cheap and fun practice, etc. He never addresses that.

Also, he makes it sound like no one who chooses the 223/77TMK ever realized success with the larger calibers. It appears to me that it’s exactly those who are the most vocal advocates.

Oh, “Colonel Craig Boddington” ?
Yeah, whatever.

 

[2-Stix]

Monos pencil through is all I know...ask the CA hunters about it. I harvested deer and elk with the same results from 75 to 535 yards. Not ideal. I chased zero on some jacked up Leupolds and had issues with 3 savages in a row. Yes I have a Tikka, UM rings and a NXS now with no issues.

 

[SloppyJ]

It’s not just the bullet or the 223. It’s every thing combined; shoot ability, staying in the scope, follow ups, cheap and fun practice, etc. He never addresses that.

Also, he makes it sound like no one who chooses the 223/77TMK ever realized success with the larger calibers. It appears to me that it’s exactly those who are the most vocal advocates.

Oh, “Colonel Craig Boddington” ?
Yeah, whatever.

You're exactly right. I didn't mention those because it's even more telling that the question stands on its own legs without any extra caveats or "but....." statements. There are a boatload of factors that weigh into the benefit side of the conversation that were never discussed.

I got hung up on the fact that "Jack" stated the cartridges that he uses which possess ample "authority" and only went down to a 6.5 creed. Right there it's stated that he actually has no data that's relevant to the discussion other than 6.5 and up kill game which no one disputes.

 

[Lawnboi]

I wonder what they think about fishnet long johns.