Form struck someone’s nerve

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

JVB said he wasn’t sure how form could’ve taken hundreds of elk. Well, he hunts multiple states, but he also hunts with a lot of people and has been a firsthand witness. JVB said that if Form’s hundreds of elk were from an elk ranch, that it wouldn’t count as to bullet performance. That’s ludicrous. An elk is an elk is an elk, doesn’t matter if it’s running around the Rockies or in a high fence ranch.

Lol considering the African ranch hunts favored by a certain crowd...

 

[Hnthrdr]

well crap, now you guys finally tell me....

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Reprint with a new buck and new hat? Haha. Although when you kill a buck that big you can pretty much wear whatever you like.

 

[robby denning]

Reprint with a new buck and new hat? Haha. Although when you kill a buck that big you can pretty much wear whatever you like.

hahahahhaah

I can see why JVB wears them from a functional standpoint...I loved my stetson crushable wool hat combined with an earband, but when I finally tested it against a hooded puffy/ballcap/earband, I decided to ditch it and went that way. the stetson was great for blocking precip/snow fall from trees, but not good at blocking wind like a hood, and a hood funnels body heat up against neck face, just feeling warmer. and it blocks the precip/snow fall better. you lose some vision though

(plus with my hood I look like a dangerous homie packing heat and a possible shank with a face tatoo lol

(Highjack over)

 

[LongWayAround]

It's purely functional.

 

[Dackdack]

I hunt solo 90%+ of the time. I carried a 22 centerfire 100% of the season this year, starting with spring bears through to backpacking stone sheep trip, then Haida Gwaii, then a bull elk, then a bull moose. Predominantly a 223AI with 88 ELD m. Only variation was going to a 223 with 77TMK on whitetails, just to scratch a specific rifle itch...

Last fall I carried a 223AI, solo, on our 2 day moose season. Same as the year before. Same as this year. Killed a big tripalm/ten point in full on grizz country all on my lonesome, same as most years. 3 bull moose in 3 years, 88 ELD m, on a 2 day, highly restrictive antler tine season. Shots can be quick, at odd angles, at varying distances.
I own at least 5 or 6 (7? 10?) larger caliber rifles in "moose/elk appropriate" cartridges that are accurate, scoped, ready to go, but I'm completely confident in the effectiveness of the bullet I use to put animals on the ground faster with a 22 centerfire.
Of course, I could step up to a similar constructed bullet and run it through a larger chambered rifle, but I typically kill stuff inside 500 yards and I don't see any benefit that would outweigh the amount of meat loss that would occur, unless of course a heavier rifle that is louder, kicks harder, and burns more powder is going to bring me happiness on that particular day.

Every single time I step out the door, even walking in my driveway to get in my truck, I"m in grizzly country. A pair of sub adults licked up all the oats in my tack shed in November. That is all of 200m from my barbeque. My cartridge of choice this year was 223AI with an 88 ELDm, hunting solo. If I were of a need to kill something RFN, that was trying to bite me, based on the wound channels I have seen from 223AI-88ELDm-77TMK/243AI-105 Amax, I would pick a 22 centerfire every single time. Simply because I want the maximum amount of carnage I can inflict, and maybe, just maybe, I might get a chance at getting a second round off because its a lighter, faster rifle to handle with a shorter bolt throw and less recoil.
With a 300 Ultra or 45/70 or 300WM I'm only going to get one chance due to recoil, and I don't load those with anything that even comes close to the damage inflicted by an ELD m or TMK.

Even with a fringe hit on the edges, I have a lot more faith in a match bullet making a big football size hole in stuff and maybe touching something fatal around the edges, instead of poking a small hole in a straight line for feet of penetration, that HAS to punch something important to be effective.

One thing I have seen with my own eyes, after a couple + decades of punching mono's and bonded bullets into animals big and small, is that hard bullets kill stuff slower. Way slower.
Bullets like the Amax and ELD m, and TMK are decisively faster killers. If I'm betting my personal well being, or my kids well being on killing something as fast as possible, I damn sure am going to hedge my bets and go with what I KNOW kills stuff the fastest.
Oddly enough, I know quite a few guys that have been tagged by grizzlies to varying levels of scar tissue, and one thing they all have said, is that time slows waaaaay down when you are getting bit and clawed and slapped across the ground. 20 seconds can seem like a lifetime in that scenario, so I can't even imagine what 90 seconds would feel like when you are waiting for that hard bullet to finish what it started IF you hit organs.... Be the longest 3 minutes of the end of your life, if you just missed lung with a mono and only broke a leg bone while you waited for the bear to decide you aren't a risk anymore......

I can definitely see the argument of not using a .300 ultra or 45/70. I would consider that to be overkill. I guess my assumption is/was that shooting a 140-ish grain Eldm with a longer barrel PRC at roughly 3000ft per second would be quite a bit more effective than a 88g eldm out of a .223 just due to the fact that you still have a lot of speed and also nearly twice the bullet weight. The recoil is worse but very manageable so follow up shots are possible. The .223 seemed to me to be a little on the small side for packing in BC. But hey maybe I am wrong on this.

 

[Swampcruiser]

I can definitely see the argument of not using a .300 ultra or 45/70. I would consider that to be overkill. I guess my assumption is/was that shooting a 140-ish grain Eldm with a longer barrel PRC at roughly 3000ft per second would be quite a bit more effective than a 88g eldm out of a .223 just due to the fact that you still have a lot of speed and also nearly twice the bullet weight. The recoil is worse but very manageable so follow up shots are possible. The .223 seemed to me to be a little on the small side for packing in BC. But hey maybe I am wrong on this.

You're not wrong, but as 27 pages will attest to the fact that nothing will be hashed out here. The fact that you can kill with small calibers is accepted- plenty of pics to show that here- no science.
What kills me as I look at all this crap is the venom and rokslide sheeple that get pissy towards anyone who dares to disagree with the anonymous expert here - so I wanna use a big 30 cal? I shoot it accurately thats my prerogative. Look at all the hate towards JVB for suggesting the obvious.
I am mainly a bowhunter and I'm in the wrong forum...where's the Ranch Fairy?

 

[Q_Sertorius]

It would be one thing to say something like, “there are a lot of people who have killed a lot of animals with .224 bullets, but it’s not for me. I’m more comfortable using a bigger bullet. If you want to do that, go check out Rokslide and learn how they do it. But my advice is to use the tried and true chamberings.” But that’s not what happened here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tony]

hahahahhaah

I can see why JVB wears them from a functional standpoint...I loved my stetson crushable wool hat combined with an earband, but when I finally tested it against a hooded puffy/ballcap/earband, I decided to ditch it and went that way. the stetson was great for blocking precip/snow fall from trees, but not good at blocking wind like a hood, and a hood funnels body heat up against neck face, just feeling warmer. and it blocks the precip/snow fall better. you lose some vision though

(plus with my hood I look like a dangerous homie packing heat and a possible shank with a face tatoo lol

(Highjack over)

Love my hats. GF hates them, so I wear them more

Just a guess, he pulled it over the nonsense he spouted in the first 5 minutes about the EXO guys hunt trips.
Can’t chance loosing sponsors or potential sponsors.

 

[JohnJohnson]

no science

I dislike when people throw around "science" as a way to spruce up their arguments. What science is missing?

rokslide sheeple that get pissy towards anyone who dares to disagree with the anonymous expert here

Why does the identity of someone matter? Things are true or false regardless who's saying it. Just address the claims on face value.

Look at all the hate towards JVB for suggesting the obvious.

What's the obvious?

 

[HuntHarder]

There's too many to delete on here, but let's keep the discussion to the facts of the debate, not insults on hat choice and voice inflection.

I mean if the other side started making fun of Ryan's beard, I'd be fired up and releasing the Meme gang on them lol

Absolutely correct here. Some of the Rokslide guys make us look like exactly how this guy apparently describes us. I won't listen to the podcast because this debate is likely only about clicks now. There is an actual civil discussion that would or could take place between a few members with differing opinions, but those are quickly drown out by a few guys arguing. Be nice if Form would have a quick debate against someone with a differing opinion. No interjections, name calling.

 

[KHntr]

I can definitely see the argument of not using a .300 ultra or 45/70. I would consider that to be overkill. I guess my assumption is/was that shooting a 140-ish grain Eldm with a longer barrel PRC at roughly 3000ft per second would be quite a bit more effective than a 88g eldm out of a .223 just due to the fact that you still have a lot of speed and also nearly twice the bullet weight. The recoil is worse but very manageable so follow up shots are possible. The .223 seemed to me to be a little on the small side for packing in BC. But hey maybe I am wrong on this.

No, you aren’t wrong in your choice, you are just more righterer.
I stopped using a 300 Ultra with 168/180/200 gr mono’s, when I shot a couple bulls with a 280AI and 150gr mono’s and the wound channels were virtually indistinguishable from each other. Critters died in the same amount of time, traveling the same amount of distance. That was a lightbulb moment for me.
The next lightbulb was shooting more than a few critters with a 105 Amax, and getting MORE tissue damage, and faster kills, and less distance traveled than with 150 gr mono’s.
The next lightbulb was reading some of Sticks posts about 22 centerfires and 75 gr Amax’s. If a 105 was too much, wouldn’t a 75 be “just right”? Mind you, this was all around Northern BC deer, and I viewed it like a stunt and treated it like that. Real careful with angles, and distances.

And stuff fell over. Right there. Immediately dead. And it brought me immense satisfaction, and that is what has me using 88’s in a 223AI now. I wouldn’t have ever contemplated shooting a moose or an elk with a 75 Amax 10 years ago unless the circumstances were perfect, but now I have no qualms anout crushing shoulders on big rut crazed bulls at any distance with an 88, and KNOWING that its going to kill him.

I have long been a dedicated shoulder shooter, but now, using a Mouse Rifle, I am much more deliberate with shot placement. “Where is that shoulder knuckle? Right there, right in front of his lungs. GOTCHA”.

I don’t fault your 6.5 PRC and ELD m choice in the slightest. If I ever pull a Wooly Mammoth LEH I will absolutely build a 6.5 PRC for ELD m’s and mammoth hunts. But for the stuff I hunt right now, I don’t need that much bullet.

 

[KHntr]

What kills me as I look at all this crap is the venom and rokslide sheeple that get pissy towards anyone who dares to disagree with the anonymous expert here - so I wanna use a big 30 cal? I shoot it accurately thats my prerogative. Look at all the hate towards JVB for suggesting the obvious.

And that is where you are wrong. The anger towards JVB isn’t because he disagrees with Form, it’s because all 3 of his podcasts around small cartridges (that I listened to at any rate) are proclaiming loudly that guys who do it aren’t ethical, that we are lying about our results and wounding losses, and that NOBODY should do it ever because he knows better.
I don’t let **** call me unethical to my face, and I’m sure as **** not okay with some chump doing it over the internet, simply because he wants to pander to his listeners and refuses to look at the evidence analytically.

Personally I think everyone who has listened to his podcast and found it lacking should leave a 1 star review. Leave multiples. Leave written reviews. Hell, go find the website where he is nominated for whatever award and vote against him.
If he wants to make a living off of the internet, then misinformation and lies should have consequences. JVB wants to actively work against guys who have researched and tested information for themselves because he “feels” it’s wrong, well, maybe he should remember what happened to Zumbo’s career when he said there was no place in the field for AR15’s and nobody should own one.

 

[idahodave]

Get the pitchfork and torches!!!

 

[KenLee]

JVB said he wasn’t sure how form could’ve taken hundreds of elk. Well, he hunts multiple states, but he also hunts with a lot of people and has been a firsthand witness. JVB said that if Form’s hundreds of elk were from an elk ranch, that it wouldn’t count as to bullet performance. That’s ludicrous. An elk is an elk is an elk, doesn’t matter if it’s running around the Rockies or in a high fence ranch.

Do the ones stolen from a small young woman count?

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

And that is where you are wrong. The anger towards JVB isn’t because he disagrees with Form, it’s because all 3 of his podcasts around small cartridges (that I listened to at any rate) are proclaiming loudly that guys who do it aren’t ethical, that we are lying about our results and wounding losses, and that NOBODY should do it ever because he knows better.
I don’t let assholes call me unethical to my face, and I’m sure as **** not okay with some chump doing it over the internet, simply because he wants to pander to his listeners and refuses to look at the evidence analytically.

Personally I think everyone who has listened to his podcast and found it lacking should leave a 1 star review. Leave multiples. Leave written reviews. Hell, go find the website where he is nominated for whatever award and vote against him.
If he wants to make a living off of the internet, then misinformation and lies should have consequences. JVB wants to actively work against guys who have researched and tested information for themselves because he “feels” it’s wrong, well, maybe he should remember what happened to Zumbo’s career when he said there was no place in the field for AR15’s and nobody should own one.

100% to all.

 

[KenLee]

"I don’t let ***** call me unethical to my face"...

That's right. Can't stand those folks who believe their lung shots kill faster than Texas heart shots . They don't.

 

[Grizzle]

No, you aren’t wrong in your choice, you are just more righterer.
I stopped using a 300 Ultra with 168/180/200 gr mono’s, when I shot a couple bulls with a 280AI and 150gr mono’s and the wound channels were virtually indistinguishable from each other. Critters died in the same amount of time, traveling the same amount of distance. That was a lightbulb moment for me.
The next lightbulb was shooting more than a few critters with a 105 Amax, and getting MORE tissue damage, and faster kills, and less distance traveled than with 150 gr mono’s.
The next lightbulb was reading some of Sticks posts about 22 centerfires and 75 gr Amax’s. If a 105 was too much, wouldn’t a 75 be “just right”? Mind you, this was all around Northern BC deer, and I viewed it like a stunt and treated it like that. Real careful with angles, and distances.

And stuff fell over. Right there. Immediately dead. And it brought me immense satisfaction, and that is what has me using 88’s in a 223AI now. I wouldn’t have ever contemplated shooting a moose or an elk with a 75 Amax 10 years ago unless the circumstances were perfect, but now I have no qualms anout crushing shoulders on big rut crazed bulls at any distance with an 88, and KNOWING that its going to kill him.

I have long been a dedicated shoulder shooter, but now, using a Mouse Rifle, I am much more deliberate with shot placement. “Where is that shoulder knuckle? Right there, right in front of his lungs. GOTCHA”.

I don’t fault your 6.5 PRC and ELD m choice in the slightest. If I ever pull a Wooly Mammoth LEH I will absolutely build a 6.5 PRC for ELD m’s and mammoth hunts. But for the stuff I hunt right now, I don’t need that much bullet.

Another BC guy and agree with you. .280ai to 6.5 prc and waiting on my 22 creed barrel. Shot a blacktail, muley and whitetail this year with the 140 eldm and it worked great, 3 one shot kills with 5- 30 yards covered after the shot. In fact it worked so well I lost at least half a front shoulder on 2 of them shooting in the crease. I don't see the logic in limiting the 6.5 wound by using a harder bullet when I can step down in cartridge so Im going to try the 88 eldm. If I see what so many like you have experienced and shared I'm pretty sure I'll be very happy with it.

 

[woods89]

I can definitely see the argument of not using a .300 ultra or 45/70. I would consider that to be overkill. I guess my assumption is/was that shooting a 140-ish grain Eldm with a longer barrel PRC at roughly 3000ft per second would be quite a bit more effective than a 88g eldm out of a .223 just due to the fact that you still have a lot of speed and also nearly twice the bullet weight. The recoil is worse but very manageable so follow up shots are possible. The .223 seemed to me to be a little on the small side for packing in BC. But hey maybe I am wrong on this.

I hate to weigh in too emphatically here, but I'll throw my anecdotal opinion in the ring. I'm just an Internet dude with some, but not a lot, of experience.

I hunt with a 10# 6.5 CM and a 8.5# or so 223. In no way is my 6.5 unpleasant to shoot, and recoil is indeed quite manageable. But what I am finding killing whitetails with both is that I am absolutely crushing field shots with my 223 in anything outside of prone with lots of time, to a level I would not have expected. So I suspect that's a bit of what @KHntr is talking about as well.

You really have to go kill some stuff with a 223 to get a picture of how intuitive killing with that level of recoil becomes. I'm the same way, if I absolutely have to kill something under time and positional constraints, I'm reaching for that 223 every time. And it's also unquestionably faster and smoother to get follow-up shots downrange.

There's nothing "wrong" about a moderate 6.5 with a good 130-140gr bullet, in fact they are wonderful killing machines. But they are simply not on the same shootability level as a well set up 223.

 

[Dixie]

This made me almost spit out the morning coffee - I tried to follow the pages of little angry cartridges yelling in chipmunk voices, but my eyes were getting heavy - then this photo made my morning. Lol

Funny how they think this is a new subject.
No love lost between Jack O and Elmer about caliber selection back in the day
I was always an Elmer Keith follower and was lucky enough to have him sign my copy of “Hell I was there” I hunted with his personal friend in the 80’s and watched a deer run further than it should have shot thru the lungs with a 375 H-H… he always said I was under gunned with my 300 WM.
Not saying I won’t try my Tikka 22-250 with 88 eldm’s on a deer or maybe an Elk …but my .338 Ultra with a 270ELX doing 2800fps would make Elmer proud.

 

[UngulateGuardian797]

well crap, now you guys finally tell me....

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Hey I run a camo sombrero when I’m archery hunting and glassing! It’s spectacular when it’s 100 degrees out!