Form struck someone’s nerve

S&S ARCHERY said:
Hey guys weighing in here. I am working on a plan to get myself on JVB’s podcast to argue where I’m coming from / share my experiences and then vice versa for him to come and argue his points on ours. I think that will be a very good platform for both parties to discuss their viewpoints.

Admittedly this is all fun for me, everything kills and can kill well in the right hands. The shooter, way more than not, is going to be the limiting factor. Place any bullet into the vitals of any animal and it will die very quickly.

The entire point of doing the original podcast with Form was to become better informed and discuss potential ways we can become even more efficient and ethical hunters. We are debating not between black and white facts but gray areas that take nuanced thinking to decipher what is best over a large sample size. Not just one off, cherry picked examples.

My general philosophy is the Hunter / the shooter is almost always the problem whether that’s archery, rifles etc. and if we can find ways to make more accurate shots, more animals will die quickly and cleanly. A big problem is getting someone to even admit that they don’t shoot heavy recoiling rifles as well as lighter recoiling ones. You have to step aside from pride / emotion and just look at facts.

After his last podcast, that did piss me off. The first 10 minutes where he talks about how the 6 Creed performance was for us this season, the shots we took and their accuracy is at best extreme exaggeration and worst him just outright lying and distorting the facts. We killed 2 giant bodied Caribou and a 66” and 68” Bull Moose with extreme effectiveness. He tried to walk it back a little saying something along the lines of “maybe I got it wrong” but to even make public statements about how something happened with very little knowledge is highly irresponsible. Not something I could ever imagine doing on a podcast that goes out to thousands of listeners. It was frankly disgusting. I will address that as the very first topic when we chat.

I am confident by the end of both discussions he will at the very least have to admit smaller calibers, in the hands of an ethical and smart hunter, can and are extremely effective at killing large game.

Steve

A little fuel for the fire. Photo attached of the 66” Bull Moose front shoulder Justin shot at 404 yards. The 108 “just barely” got through the bone :). This is just one random, cherry picked sample based on a real experience and maybe would never happen again but it absolutely destroyed a 3/4 thick bone and shattered it into pieces. Damage beyond the bone was indecipherable. There was nothing but mush all the way into the heart and lungs. Once I deboned it I tried to get all the parts / fragments back together to take this photo.
Click to expand...

Good on you Steve. I hope you guys can offer a rebuttal to him because it seems like he won’t address any of those points on his own podcast.

Now, if you could just figure out a way to appeal to guys who work with their bodies for a living


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
gabenzeke said:
Has Form stated he was in the special forces? I don't recall reading or hearing that anywhere. But jvb said he doubts Form served in that capacity.
Click to expand...
The fact he even thinks it matters whether someone was in the special forces shows he doesn't even know how to think critically. Why would he think that's relevant?

Maybe Form needs to reveal his identity with a picture of himself wearing a bigger/dumber hat and that'd be sufficient authority.

81Gy6LQdnmL._AC_UY1000_.jpg
 
This latest podcast was tough to listen to. The dude is dug in and doubt he'll open his mind to different ideas. Why he's taking such a stand is beyond me. Wonder what his Rokslide screen name is. 🧐
 
S&S ARCHERY said:
Hey guys weighing in here. I am working on a plan to get myself on JVB’s podcast to argue where I’m coming from / share my experiences and then vice versa for him to come and argue his points on ours. I think that will be a very good platform for both parties to discuss their viewpoints.

Admittedly this is all fun for me, everything kills and can kill well in the right hands. The shooter, way more than not, is going to be the limiting factor. Place any bullet into the vitals of any animal and it will die very quickly.

The entire point of doing the original podcast with Form was to become better informed and discuss potential ways we can become even more efficient and ethical hunters. We are debating not between black and white facts but gray areas that take nuanced thinking to decipher what is best over a large sample size. Not just one off, cherry picked examples.

My general philosophy is the Hunter / the shooter is almost always the problem whether that’s archery, rifles etc. and if we can find ways to make more accurate shots, more animals will die quickly and cleanly. A big problem is getting someone to even admit that they don’t shoot heavy recoiling rifles as well as lighter recoiling ones. You have to step aside from pride / emotion and just look at facts.

After his last podcast, that did piss me off. The first 10 minutes where he talks about how the 6 Creed performance was for us this season, the shots we took and their accuracy is at best extreme exaggeration and worst him just outright lying and distorting the facts. We killed 2 giant bodied Caribou and a 66” and 68” Bull Moose with extreme effectiveness. He tried to walk it back a little saying something along the lines of “maybe I got it wrong” but to even make public statements about how something happened with very little knowledge is highly irresponsible. Not something I could ever imagine doing on a podcast that goes out to thousands of listeners. It was frankly disgusting. I will address that as the very first topic when we chat.

I am confident by the end of both discussions he will at the very least have to admit smaller calibers, in the hands of an ethical and smart hunter, can and are extremely effective at killing large game.

Steve

A little fuel for the fire. Photo attached of the 66” Bull Moose front shoulder Justin shot at 404 yards. The 108 “just barely” got through the bone :). This is just one random, cherry picked sample based on a real experience and maybe would never happen again but it absolutely destroyed a 3/4 thick bone and shattered it into pieces. Damage beyond the bone was indecipherable. There was nothing but mush all the way into the heart and lungs. Once I deboned it I tried to get all the parts / fragments back together to take this photo.
Click to expand...

I don't think you guys would publicly be assholes ... And maybe not even discreetly. But I suggest you wrap up those moose shoulder fragments with a 108eldm and send it to JVB for Christmas
 
S&S ARCHERY said:
Hey guys weighing in here. I am working on a plan to get myself on JVB’s podcast to argue where I’m coming from / share my experiences and then vice versa for him to come and argue his points on ours. I think that will be a very good platform for both parties to discuss their viewpoints.

Admittedly this is all fun for me, everything kills and can kill well in the right hands. The shooter, way more than not, is going to be the limiting factor. Place any bullet into the vitals of any animal and it will die very quickly.

The entire point of doing the original podcast with Form was to become better informed and discuss potential ways we can become even more efficient and ethical hunters. We are debating not between black and white facts but gray areas that take nuanced thinking to decipher what is best over a large sample size. Not just one off, cherry picked examples.

My general philosophy is the Hunter / the shooter is almost always the problem whether that’s archery, rifles etc. and if we can find ways to make more accurate shots, more animals will die quickly and cleanly. A big problem is getting someone to even admit that they don’t shoot heavy recoiling rifles as well as lighter recoiling ones. You have to step aside from pride / emotion and just look at facts.

After his last podcast, that did piss me off. The first 10 minutes where he talks about how the 6 Creed performance was for us this season, the shots we took and their accuracy is at best extreme exaggeration and worst him just outright lying and distorting the facts. We killed 2 giant bodied Caribou and a 66” and 68” Bull Moose with extreme effectiveness. He tried to walk it back a little saying something along the lines of “maybe I got it wrong” but to even make public statements about how something happened with very little knowledge is highly irresponsible. Not something I could ever imagine doing on a podcast that goes out to thousands of listeners. It was frankly disgusting. I will address that as the very first topic when we chat.

I am confident by the end of both discussions he will at the very least have to admit smaller calibers, in the hands of an ethical and smart hunter, can and are extremely effective at killing large game.

Steve

A little fuel for the fire. Photo attached of the 66” Bull Moose front shoulder Justin shot at 404 yards. The 108 “just barely” got through the bone :). This is just one random, cherry picked sample based on a real experience and maybe would never happen again but it absolutely destroyed a 3/4 thick bone and shattered it into pieces. Damage beyond the bone was indecipherable. There was nothing but mush all the way into the heart and lungs. Once I deboned it I tried to get all the parts / fragments back together to take this photo.
Click to expand...
Joe basically called you a pussy because one of his sponsors had a complete shoulder rebuild and even, he can shoot a 6.5 prc, so why can't you.

I tried to take the middle road with JVB. I believe he has experience in hunting. Yet his experience is not science as he keeps parroting.
There are hundreds of pictures that show the results here. Dude has a serious 7prc fetish as well.
 
S&S ARCHERY said:
Hey guys weighing in here. I am working on a plan to get myself on JVB’s podcast to argue where I’m coming from / share my experiences and then vice versa for him to come and argue his points on ours. I think that will be a very good platform for both parties to discuss their viewpoints.

Admittedly this is all fun for me, everything kills and can kill well in the right hands. The shooter, way more than not, is going to be the limiting factor. Place any bullet into the vitals of any animal and it will die very quickly.

The entire point of doing the original podcast with Form was to become better informed and discuss potential ways we can become even more efficient and ethical hunters. We are debating not between black and white facts but gray areas that take nuanced thinking to decipher what is best over a large sample size. Not just one off, cherry picked examples.

My general philosophy is the Hunter / the shooter is almost always the problem whether that’s archery, rifles etc. and if we can find ways to make more accurate shots, more animals will die quickly and cleanly. A big problem is getting someone to even admit that they don’t shoot heavy recoiling rifles as well as lighter recoiling ones. You have to step aside from pride / emotion and just look at facts.

After his last podcast, that did piss me off. The first 10 minutes where he talks about how the 6 Creed performance was for us this season, the shots we took and their accuracy is at best extreme exaggeration and worst him just outright lying and distorting the facts. We killed 2 giant bodied Caribou and a 66” and 68” Bull Moose with extreme effectiveness. He tried to walk it back a little saying something along the lines of “maybe I got it wrong” but to even make public statements about how something happened with very little knowledge is highly irresponsible. Not something I could ever imagine doing on a podcast that goes out to thousands of listeners. It was frankly disgusting. I will address that as the very first topic when we chat.

I am confident by the end of both discussions he will at the very least have to admit smaller calibers, in the hands of an ethical and smart hunter, can and are extremely effective at killing large game.

Steve

A little fuel for the fire. Photo attached of the 66” Bull Moose front shoulder Justin shot at 404 yards. The 108 “just barely” got through the bone :). This is just one random, cherry picked sample based on a real experience and maybe would never happen again but it absolutely destroyed a 3/4 thick bone and shattered it into pieces. Damage beyond the bone was indecipherable. There was nothing but mush all the way into the heart and lungs. Once I deboned it I tried to get all the parts / fragments back together to take this photo.
Click to expand...

I seem to recollect that some of the information in a (the?) Podcast you did with Form was incorrect regarding how much a rifle moves from recoil prior to a bullet exiting a barrel. As it pertained to the specific thesis of that podcast, it seemed to be consequentially relevant.

If you are planning to revisit the subjects of your discussion with Form, maybe that could get sorted as to the difference from what was stated and what actual values are, and how it translates directly to a shooter/error. Form I believe said he misspoke, as I recall. Or maybe I’ve had too much bourbon, lol, and am out to lunch. But I think I can re-find it.

Anyway, the bottom line might not change, but if there is as I recall something incorrect, it’d be worth hashing out since that’s why everyone craps on “fudds.”

Don’t really care what caliber folks use, just want accurate information circulating.
 
I couldn't make it through JVB's first attempt to tackle this. I have no idea how some of you were able to stomach a whole additional episode. Better men than me.
 
gabenzeke said:
I heard a handful of times on these podcasts him or his listeners that wrote in suggest that the smaller calibers are unethical while at the same time saying that if you're offered only a bad shot angle that they can't imagine someone simply not taking the shot. I would argue it doesn't matter what caliber you're shooting or how much the hunt costs. If you can't turn down a poor opportunity, you're taking what could be considered an unethical shot. The obsession with penetration depth with these guys is hilarious though.
Click to expand...
You would be amazed at the amount of people who take the shot without caring if it is an ethical shot or not. I have hunted with a group of people that are all family members for about 20 years. Many of the oldest members of the group have passed on or are in poor health so it is just the younger (30's and 40's) members and their kids that still hunt together. The distances they will shoot at things (without checking the distance with a range finder) is ridiculous. 600, 800, 1000+... let a volley go! Shoot until they drop or you can't see them anymore! Let's go check for blood... now where were they standing?

Only once has this happened when I was in the vicinity of them as I like to hike in from the backside of the mountain and get a ride back to my truck in the evening. This time I rode up the open face with them and we spotted some cow elk walking up one of the gullies. The guy I was with jumped out and started shooting before I even got my rifle out of the back seat. I had ranged the elk at 625 yards and was about to tell him we could probably kill both with my 300WM if I dialed for them as I had been hitting steel and rocks from 800 to 1200 yards the day before. Here he was blasting away at them with a 30-06 and a duplex scope. I asked him what he thought he was doing and he said "They were going to run!". Well they sure started running after he started blasting at them. I asked him how far he though it was. He replied that is only 250 or 300 to the bottom where they were standing. I told him the real distance and he wouldn't believe me. I'd seen where his bullets had hit so I made him go "look for blood" with me. He didn't want to go any further than the road when he saw there was no blood in the snow where they crossed. I made him walk all the way down to where they were standing when he shot. I showed him where his bullets hit in the snow (about 4' in front of where they were standing) and he told me there was no way that he hit that low 'cause "he was holding a good foot over their backs"...

My BIL is part of this group. He has a 300WM Weatherby Vanguard in fancy camo stock with a Vortex scope. I had asked him what he was shooting in it and he replied "whatever is cheap". I asked him how it grouped and he said "it will just about cover your palm at 100..." I told him I would take a look at it and try some of the factory ammo I have for my guns (some where around 8 different types) and find him something that would shoot good. Cover the group with your hand was generous... Some of the groups I couldn't keep on a full sized target! I did the same for his stepsons 6.5CM and we had 3 touching at 100 in the first box of ammo I tried. I brought the gun back to his house and said we needed to take it apart and clean everything then put it all back together again. While we were at it, we needed to adjust the scope because you really needed to stretch your neck to get a good sight picture. We found the action screws loose, one of the Tally rings with a loose mounting screw into the action, and the stock putting major pressure on the barrel. I tried to get it shooting right before season started but it didn't work out so I loaned him one of my loaner rifles, a 300WM Tikka. He didn't waste a bunch of ammo since I shoot Berger 185 Factory ammo and he didn't want to waste $4.00 a round ammo so he was hesitant to take poor shots. I hunted a couple of times with him during the season but it wasn't until the end of the season when he got a chance on a nice buck.

I'd brought a 223 with me because I'd gained permission to hunt a ranch to try and get my youngest nephew a whitetail doe. I planned to have the 223 suppressed in a tripod for him so we could take a good shot at his first deer. We practiced shooting before we went to the deer fields and my nephew went 3 for 3 on the gong at 250 yards. Gun was ready and so was he but no deer came out until it was after shooting light. On the last day of the season my BIL decided he wanted to just deer hunt and wanted to kill one with the 223 since it was so much fun to shoot the day before. We went up the mountain and hid in a rock pile where guys had been seeing deer come out on an open face nearby. We spotted some deer at 620 yards and they were feeding towards us. They fed out of sight and worked closer. They came into view at 410 yards right across from us. At the top of a small rise. As I was ranging them, someone on the mountain started shooting. The deer got nervous and started moving back the way they came from. One of these deer was an excellent 4x4 buck. My BIL was screaming at me for a solution. I told him it wasn't right and not to shoot. He said he was just going to put the dot on the deers nose (buck had gone from broadside to facing us trying to figure out what the does didn't like) and I made him stand down. He was pissed. Told me that he would have just shot it it was his gun. I laughed and told him he would have been luck to hit the hillside with his 300. He said that a 300WM would have hit it right in the chest if you aimed at the nose. I told him that's why they never kill anything. None of them understand ballistics. I told him the 223 drops 36 inches at that distance and the 300WM load he was using in my loaner rifle drops 27 inches. If he had shot with the 223 he would have missed and with the 300WM he would have blown a leg off and it would have ran downhill into the private to die and never be seen again. It was at this point he admitted that maybe it was important to know what the distance is that you're trying to shoot at. It was a real breakthrough moment for someone from this group that has been doing stuff like dad, grandpa, and uncle did it for so long without any consideration for the knowledge and ethics that technology can bring. The worst part is I gave him my old Swarovski range finder last year and he didn't even use it this year... 🤦‍♂️

Slob hunters are everywhere. I'm sure we all know a few. I hunt with very few people because of my desire not to hunt with idiots. My wife and kids are better hunters, riflemen, and sportsmen than most adults I've hunted with. I think there might be hope for my BIL if I keep after him. I've got a long ways to go but he's not a lost cause like his cousin. His cousin drew blood on 4 elk this year and only retrieved one. The rest ran off wounded. Pull the trigger and worry about the angle later...

Jay
 
Last edited:
#2 of JVB was better than the first one...
Rokslde about this topic is about like watching MSNBC after Trump won 🤣 .
Good points on both sides... pick your cartridge/bullet and go kill stuff,no need to post results for narcissistic gratification or proving your .223 kills Elk, I've killed them with a 22 mag back in the day(DRT head shot)Who cares if you have a rodeo with your piss-ant caliber,the birds need something to eat if you don't recover it.
Man up,LOL
I'm being sarcastic so if this triggers you get over it.
 
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