Form struck someone’s nerve

[canyonhunter47]

I noticed that too, I’m not going to disagree that a rutted up animal bulky with testosterone be it a deer , elk , sheep is bulkier, but heavier bones?

I didn’t listen to the whole thing but I thought I heard thicker hide in the rut and specifically talking about 10+ year old elk.

I’ve never broken out the calipers to check exactly how much, but he’s right that mature bulls in September have thicker hide and muscle than spikes and raghorns struggling through the winter. But I still doubt that’s enough to catch an ELD-M like a baseball

I do have the shoulders of a fat AZ bull aging in my garage to cut up and measure in the next day or two though

 

[bergie]

I have seen Form refer to shoulder blades as similar to cardboard, which they are. I cannot recall a "paper thin" analogy but would assign some hyperbole to that.

I'm not going to listen to anything from a guy who claimed to shoot through a foot of muscle and bone. So if JVB claimed that bones get heavier with rutting, that sounds right on brand for him.

Gross exaggeration is not the same as hyperbole.

I am not sure you can label one hyperbole because you agree with the person making the claim and then turn around and list the other as gross exaggeration just because you disagree.

In the analogy I think both are gross exaggerations that are done for the sole purpose of convincing the other side that their opinion of what caliber to use is right.

When your stance is to use data to prove your point there is no place (or need) for hyperbole.

 

[LongWayAround]

I am not sure you can label one hyperbole because you agree with the person making the claim and then turn around and list the other as gross exaggeration just because you disagree.

In the analogy I think both are gross exaggerations that are done for the sole purpose of convincing the other side that their opinion of what caliber to use is right.

When your stance is to use data to prove your point there is no place (or need) for hyperbole.

I know that sounded hypocritical...

In the name of data, we have numerous pictures where small rounds have easily penetrated (exploded) large bones. Measurements of tissue thickness and wound channels.

There is no data showing a foot of muscle/bone in the front half of an elk.

 

[UngulateGuardian797]

I follow your thoughts very closely as well. I bring a 6 PRC with me on every hunt as a backup rifle. I killed a buck with it and it made a plenty good hole in him. I would absolutely hike up a mountain with full confidence to kill any deer/elk with that 6mm bullet out to a pretty good distance if need be.

I just choose to shoot something bigger, because I just like it, mostly. I do see animals react a little more "sick" and do more of a hunch and just stove up a little more when hit with the bigger fragmenting bullets going fast. Could be total bullshit and make believe in my mind, but it really seems that way for everything I've killed, and comparing videos I've seen of animals that weren't DRT kills with big and small calibers.

Very minor things considering they all end up dead, and the benefit most people gain from gunning down and picking a heavy for caliber match bullet.

I am a lover of my 6’s, but I really enjoy using my 300 Win. Mag with a 208 gr. ELDM especially in the wind. Everything I’ve shot with both have died within sight.

I’ve been forced for the last two years due a significant shoulder injury to shoot a lower recoiling rifle left handed. I’ve went to shooting a 10 lb. 6 Creed with the 108 gr. ELDM and every animal I’ve shot it at has died surprisingly fast. It has made me really rethink the whole “big gun for big game” thought process. It’s been a lot of fun to dive into it. I won’t be getting rid of all of my “big guns” ,but they definitely are in my safe a lot more now.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I loathe podcats and just listened to the first 2 minutes and shut it off... Completely unbearable no matter the subject matter with whoever this guy is.

 

[darcytribe]

Listening to the Exo gear podcast today, Mark mentioned that he had reached out to JVB and they are planning to have him on their cast to give his perspective on this topic.

 

[CorbLand]

I loathe podcats and just listened to the first 2 minutes and shut it off... Completely unbearable no matter the subject matter with whoever this guy is.

Pretty sure I warned you of that a bit back.

 

[Ucsdryder]

I loathe podcats and just listened to the first 2 minutes and shut it off... Completely unbearable no matter the subject matter with whoever this guy is.

2 minutes? You didn’t even go to the “best warranty you’ll never need” part!

 

[Murder Mittens]

"Teacher" in the sense of being open to new information because he feels he owes it to his students to figure out if it's actually useful. He's very clear he hasn't done any droptesting and refuses to do it. It's also clear as day that he doesn't have even a basic understanding of it as I broke down in a previous reply. Which is weird since he claims he read up on it. People can conclude what they want about whether he was telling the truth.

Maybe a better word for it is "lifelong learner" or something I don't know. All I know is the best teachers I know are humble enough to look into new things because they feel like that burden should fall on them and not their students. He goes around teaching long range all over the country and appearing all over "influencer's" social media. Seems like this would be something he'd want to look into in good faith given it's squarely within the topic he teaches.

I appreciate the reply! I am perhaps slightly biased towards the subject. Caylen and I have crossed paths many times over the years and I do not believe that he is a bad teacher. Our personal experiences drive us and our personal biases. It is OK to not agree with each other all the time, but we shouldn’t be bashing one another over assumptions. I have had the opportunity to participate in many long gun based courses all around the world and I disagree with something taught at every course. I don’t discount any of the teachers at said courses though. Hell….i spent 5 days at the shoot2hunt course with Form and his boys. I enjoyed the guys there, but I don’t agree with everything they said or how it was instructed. I still like the hell out of them and certainly don’t attack their teaching methods or their character. I think you and I would get along great! I just disagree with you on this subject is all. Have a good one brother…

 

[JohnJohnson]

Caylen and I have crossed paths many times over the years and I do not believe that he is a bad teacher.

I am sure that Caylen is good at passing on the how-to of long range shooting. Zero doubts in that department. That is completely separate from whether he is a curious person open to new/contradictory information. It would be cool if he was both.

Our personal experiences drive us and our personal biases.

That's very true. If he had framed his reluctance around his personal biases then I wouldn't agree but I'd respect the honesty. Instead he framed it around assumptions about the droptest that he would know are untrue if he spent 5 minutes reading up on it, his buddy's feedback at Leupold, and woo-woo appeals to science that show he doesn't understand how probability works.

None of this makes Caylen a bad guy, not that he cares what any of us think anyway.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Pretty sure I warned you of that a bit back.

You sure did!

 

[doc holiday13]

I listened to the JVB podcast this evening because i had to spends few hours driving between 3pm and now. JVB is a dolt. He is 100% more concerned about a bullet retaining weight and thru animal penetrative. In his own examples of "bad bullet size" he presented what would be considered excellent performance. IE small diameter bullet drops an animal basically on the spot but he can't find a large bullet chunk but JVB says it's a fail.

WtF. Fail would be full mushroom bullet and pass thru on the animal, it ran for 100+ yards and found 3 days later

 

[Choupique]

Fail would be full mushroom bullet and pass thru on

That works really well and properly placed gives very fast kills.

It is possible to have lung and heart soup AND have a reliable pass through. I don't remember ever cleaning an animal shot in the chest cavity with a centerfire rifle that didn't have extreme internal trauma, whether the bullet exited or not.

Full disclaimer, I only know one person who shoots copper. Everyone else is shooting normal hunting bullets (mushrooms and such)

 

[LONE HUNTER]

Someone should ask JVB how much that large caliber helped his brother kill someone else's deer.

Funniest comment i've read on here in a long long time...

 

[CorbLand]

Funniest comment i've read on here in a long long time...

You missed some seriously great threads then.

 

[LONE HUNTER]

You missed some seriously great threads then.

Took a year Hiatus...... the BOAL thread was the last hella funny thread I really read.

 

[Gravel Road]

I think a bunch of people need to read the ancient P.O. Ackley books. A long time ago he advocated small calibers, high velocity and quick twists. There was 17 and 22 cal testing done on feral horses or donkeys (been a while since I read the books) confirming success. Considering the crap bullets of the day, he was way, way ahead of his time.

 

[IDVortex]

I think a bunch of people need to read the ancient P.O. Ackley books. A long time ago he advocated small calibers, high velocity and quick twists. There was 17 and 22 cal testing done on feral horses or donkeys (been a while since I read the books) confirming success. Considering the crap bullets of the day, he was way, way ahead of his time.

So you're saying there is a purpose to all the horses in the wild..

 

[Stearinlys]

I think a bunch of people need to read the ancient P.O. Ackley books. A long time ago he advocated small calibers, high velocity and quick twists. There was 17 and 22 cal testing done on feral horses or donkeys (been a while since I read the books) confirming success. Considering the crap bullets of the day, he was way, way ahead of his time.

Do you remember the name of those books?

 

[twall13]

I think a bunch of people need to read the ancient P.O. Ackley books. A long time ago he advocated small calibers, high velocity and quick twists. There was 17 and 22 cal testing done on feral horses or donkeys (been a while since I read the books) confirming success. Considering the crap bullets of the day, he was way, way ahead of his time.

If I recall correctly, I believe Frank Glaser was a proponent of smaller calibers as well. He used them a lot on Grizzley's Moose and Sheep. I seem to remember him saying rifle caliber is less important than marksmanship and he killed a pile of animals with a bunch of calibers as a market hunter for awhile. "Alaska's Wolf Man: The 1915-1955 Wilderness Adventures of Frank Glaser" by Jim Rearden is well worth the read regardless of the caliber discussion.

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