Form struck someone’s nerve

[WRO]

Here in AZ id love to see some ballistic testing on our feral Donkeys. They are out of control. Damn feds have them protected

Are they wearing bulletproof vests?


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[HuntHarder]

Are they wearing bulletproof vests?


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Full combat armor including helmets

 

[IDVortex]

Full combat armor including helmets

Us made armor or middle east? If the later, wouldn't be difficult to punch through.

 

[roosiebull]

Are they wearing bulletproof vests?


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They grow them pre rut (that’s peer reviewed fact)

 

[WRO]

Us made armor or middle east? If the later, wouldn't be difficult to punch through.

We should start a pagers for horses and donkeys campaign..


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[Murder Mittens]

I think Caylen went off half-cocked on the issue based on information his Leupold friend gave him. Now he's just doubling down because it would take a lot of humility to admit he's not a font of information on this topic.

It tells me what kind of teacher he is, in a way. Some control their ego and would approach this as "This sounds crazy but I should nonetheless look into it in good faith because I owe that to my students." However he seems to take it as a challenge to his authority.

NO….You assume what kind of teacher he is from a response to something that he doesn’t believe in doing.

 

[JohnJohnson]

NO….You assume what kind of teacher he is from a response to something that he doesn’t believe in doing.

"Teacher" in the sense of being open to new information because he feels he owes it to his students to figure out if it's actually useful. He's very clear he hasn't done any droptesting and refuses to do it. It's also clear as day that he doesn't have even a basic understanding of it as I broke down in a previous reply. Which is weird since he claims he read up on it. People can conclude what they want about whether he was telling the truth.

Maybe a better word for it is "lifelong learner" or something I don't know. All I know is the best teachers I know are humble enough to look into new things because they feel like that burden should fall on them and not their students. He goes around teaching long range all over the country and appearing all over "influencer's" social media. Seems like this would be something he'd want to look into in good faith given it's squarely within the topic he teaches.

 

[doc holiday13]

Hunters arguing about cartridge selection? Shocking!

IKR!!??

At some point though the guys who claim smaller won't kill need to change their tune and say "I won't use X caliber, but I can see that smaller that X calibers seem to be highly effective".

For me, personally I wouldn't use less than 7mm for elk because I don't like in an elk abundant/easy to hunt state. So that said, I'm gonna use a big destructive 180g target or 160g frangible all copper bullet on elk. I want dead dead dead quick quick and the ability to land a 600yard shot with leftover HP(if thats my only option)

If I live in an easy to hunt elk state, I would probably move to a 6mm or possibly a 223 caliber bullet in the 77-100g range because I wouldn't be in the time crunch and expense of having to travel to hunt. For whitetail, if I was allowed, I'd use 223 ALLL day; but I can't, so I use a 6mm.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

At some point though the guys who claim smaller won't kill need to change their tune and say "I won't use X caliber, but I can see that smaller that X calibers seem to be highly effective".

Only a few have been willing to "admit that" everyone else seems to get very defensive about the subject for whatever reason. Usually the loudest ones on the subject are the folks with the least to zero experience even trying it. It's weird.

 

[HuntHarder]

Has there been anyone who said "smaller won't kill"?

 

[JohnJohnson]

Has there been anyone who said "smaller won't kill"?

Most of the time it's vague allusions to "non-ideal shots" so they don't have to say they want the option to shoot something in the ass and have the bullet exit the chest.

 

[Marshfly]

Most of the time it's vague allusions to "non-ideal shots" so they don't have to say they want the option to shoot something in the ass and have the bullet exit the chest.

It's kind of shocking how many people will brag about constantly attempting marginal shots on animals.

 

[JakeSCH]

My favorite part of the podcast was when he said he would use "science," and we use magic and voodoo. But all he did was tell the story of magic and voodoo to justify his science. HAHA!

This was by far my biggest take-a-way. He doesn't know what science means.

The whole thing is sad, I use to listen to his podcast and asked him tons of questions but his opinion seems bought these days. Pretty sure a year or so back he talked about how effective a 6 CM was when his kids were using it.

 

[wyosam]

IKR!!??

At some point though the guys who claim smaller won't kill need to change their tune and say "I won't use X caliber, but I can see that smaller that X calibers seem to be highly effective".

For me, personally I wouldn't use less than 7mm for elk because I don't like in an elk abundant/easy to hunt state. So that said, I'm gonna use a big destructive 180g target or 160g frangible all copper bullet on elk. I want dead dead dead quick quick and the ability to land a 600yard shot with leftover HP(if thats my only option)

If I live in an easy to hunt elk state, I would probably move to a 6mm or possibly a 223 caliber bullet in the 77-100g range because I wouldn't be in the time crunch and expense of having to travel to hunt. For whitetail, if I was allowed, I'd use 223 ALLL day; but I can't, so I use a 6mm.

I think there are a lot of people in that camp, they just aren’t as vocal as those more entrenched. I wish I still had the opportunity to hunt enough to experiment more with smaller calibers with monos (I recognize that’s a bit of a handicap) since moving to AK. I was skeptical, but there is no denying the amount of evidence that has been posted to this forum. My youngest is 3, so I have a little time. Sooner or later I’ll
Pick up another Tikka in 223 or find a deal on a bolt. I’ll probably add a light recoiling 6 barrel sooner than that, probably a Dasher. I’m glad there are still enough people arguing about to keep these repetitive threads interesting


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[WRO]

IKR!!??

At some point though the guys who claim smaller won't kill need to change their tune and say "I won't use X caliber, but I can see that smaller that X calibers seem to be highly effective".

For me, personally I wouldn't use less than 7mm for elk because I don't like in an elk abundant/easy to hunt state. So that said, I'm gonna use a big destructive 180g target or 160g frangible all copper bullet on elk. I want dead dead dead quick quick and the ability to land a 600yard shot with leftover HP(if thats my only option)

If I live in an easy to hunt elk state, I would probably move to a 6mm or possibly a 223 caliber bullet in the 77-100g range because I wouldn't be in the time crunch and expense of having to travel to hunt. For whitetail, if I was allowed, I'd use 223 ALLL day; but I can't, so I use a 6mm.

It’s not that the smaller calibers wont kill them, its time on their feet and the opportunity for a follow up shot.

 

[CorbLand]

Has there been anyone who said "smaller won't kill"?

I dont know that I have seen anyone here say it but I have been told it a few times in person.

One of my favorite things when I worked a gun counter was to hand people 6.5CM when they asked for an elk gun.

 

[tony]

I listened to it. My hunting experience is limited to white tails as far as big game goes. I thought he brought up an interesting point on bone vs. caliber.
My take:
Joe was getting more emotionally invested in the subject as time went on.
He presented no “science” other than his experience and some dude named Jim from New Zealand.
I’ll bet a dollar he reads this site and has seen the “science” that has been posted in various threads.
He constianly mentions the “quartering shot”. I get it as most do, an animal will never present the perfect angle. Seems like all he gets is quartering shots maybe?
His kids use small calibers with his blessing. Seems sort of hypocritical.
Seemed to blast Steve Speck, who obviously knows how to hunt. And sounded like he hard a hard time believing Steves results.

I don’t mind JVB and listen regularly. He seemed stressed more so in this podcast, His FnL already suffering from Liver cancer, took a fall and is paralyzed from the neck down. So I’m sure that is weighing on him.

 

[huntnful]

IKR!!??

At some point though the guys who claim smaller won't kill need to change their tune and say "I won't use X caliber, but I can see that smaller that X calibers seem to be highly effective".

For me, personally I wouldn't use less than 7mm for elk because I don't like in an elk abundant/easy to hunt state. So that said, I'm gonna use a big destructive 180g target or 160g frangible all copper bullet on elk. I want dead dead dead quick quick and the ability to land a 600yard shot with leftover HP(if thats my only option)

If I live in an easy to hunt elk state, I would probably move to a 6mm or possibly a 223 caliber bullet in the 77-100g range because I wouldn't be in the time crunch and expense of having to travel to hunt. For whitetail, if I was allowed, I'd use 223 ALLL day; but I can't, so I use a 6mm.

I follow your thoughts very closely as well. I bring a 6 PRC with me on every hunt as a backup rifle. I killed a buck with it and it made a plenty good hole in him. I would absolutely hike up a mountain with full confidence to kill any deer/elk with that 6mm bullet out to a pretty good distance if need be.

I just choose to shoot something bigger, because I just like it, mostly. I do see animals react a little more "sick" and do more of a hunch and just stove up a little more when hit with the bigger fragmenting bullets going fast. Could be total bullshit and make believe in my mind, but it really seems that way for everything I've killed, and comparing videos I've seen of animals that weren't DRT kills with big and small calibers.

Very minor things considering they all end up dead, and the benefit most people gain from gunning down and picking a heavy for caliber match bullet.

 

[S-3 ranch]

I listened to it. My hunting experience is limited to white tails as far as big game goes. I thought he brought up an interesting point on bone vs. caliber.
My take:
Joe was getting more emotionally invested in the subject as time went on.
He presented no “science” other than his experience and some dude named Jim from New Zealand.
I’ll bet a dollar he reads this site and has seen the “science” that has been posted in various threads.
He constianly mentions the “quartering shot”. I get it as most do, an animal will never present the perfect angle. Seems like all he gets is quartering shots maybe?
His kids use small calibers with his blessing. Seems sort of hypocritical.
Seemed to blast Steve Speck, who obviously knows how to hunt. And sounded like he hard a hard time believing Steves results.

I don’t mind JVB and listen regularly. He seemed stressed more so in this podcast, His FnL already suffering from Liver cancer, took a fall and is paralyzed from the neck down. So I’m sure that is weighing on him.

I noticed that too, I’m not going to disagree that a rutted up animal bulky with testosterone be it a deer , elk , sheep is bulkier, but heavier bones? ( is ridiculous)
Here is a elk scapula that has some 150gr TSX holes in them from a .308win , both Form & JVB are wrong in their position on bone structure ( Form said “ paper thin “ &
JVB ultra “heavy due to the rut “ ) in their prospective podcast

 

[LongWayAround]

I noticed that too, I’m not going to disagree that a rutted up animal bulky with testosterone be it a deer , elk , sheep isn’t bulkier, but heavier bones?
Here is a elk scapula that has some 150gr TSX holes in them from a .308win , both Form & JVB are wrong in their position on bone structure ( Form said “ paper thin “ &
JVB ultra “heavy due to the rut “ ) in their prospective podcastView attachment 804479

I have seen Form refer to shoulder blades as similar to cardboard, which they are. I cannot recall a "paper thin" analogy but would assign some hyperbole to that.

I'm not going to listen to anything from a guy who claimed to shoot through a foot of muscle and bone. So if JVB claimed that bones get heavier with rutting, that sounds right on brand for him.

Gross exaggeration is not the same as hyperbole.