Flawed thinking?

[Coveyleader]

You hear alot about carrying expandable broadheads for long follow up shots (saw it today on my favorite youtube channel) on elk. The more I think about this, its pretty flawed thinking. Lets say you shoot an elk, it runs out to 40-50-60 yds and is looking back, or is walking slowly away but at a hard angle. At severe angles, do you think you can maximize your penetration using an expandable head? You will most likely being shooting at a hard quartering animal at best. If I know it's a bad shot, I will try to get an arrow into the elk at any angle possible and hopefully drive the arrow deep which seems counterproductive with a mechanical.

I'm batting 1 for 4 on follow up shots where the elk actually gave me a good broadside shot after an initial hit. All the rest were quartering to me, or hard away. One I jumped 3-4 times, and never had a good follow up shot angle and he was always 80-100 yds ahead of me. When I finally caught him in his last bed, it ended up being a close shot, but very hard angled. I don't see the logic in this thought process. Internet hype?

Thoughts?

 

[WI in the west]

I guess i always thought people do that for the accuracy/forgiveness of bad form at long range. I know i cant shoot a broad had very great at 80 but an expandable i would feel a lot better about hitting where i aimed for example.
that being siad id be more worried about actually hitting it then worrying about penetration but that ls how i always looked at it i guess.

 

[Oldffemt]

They’re not small, get close and shoot them in the vitals with the first shot. I wait for as close to broadside shots as possible. Off angle shots are asking for trouble. Being patient and waiting for a better shot may not result in a dead elk every time but at least you’re not wounding them.

 

[5MilesBack]

I sent a second arrow on a decent 6x6, and it was an Ulmer Edge. That head and arrow blew through that bull quartering away right side, then blew right through the humerus bone landing about 20 yards further. That was from only 54 yards though. On another big 6 I shot a 125gr Spitfire (1.5" 3-blade cut) through that bull hard quartering away from 59 yards, on a first shot. No issues. But yes, I do have that 32.5" draw though.

My moose I shot with an Exodus first shot at 54 yards, then a followup shot with a GR Fatal Steel broadside at 38 after he stood back up. He never took another step, fell over dead face first. That arrow buried up to the fletching on my 30" arrows, and the BH stuck in an offside rib.

 

[BRTreedogs]

I think any hit with a mechanical is better the. A miss with fixed.
I don’t consider it far until 70 plus.
I shoot a mechanical with a bleeder to it should do at least some damage.

I think it also depends on your setup.

I think my setup is plenty heavy to get adequate penetration.

But if you’re short and low poundage that could be a factor.

 

[Marble]

I dont think its flawed thinking. I shoot a good mechanical that is accurate. If it is a bad angle or shot, i dont shoot. That simple.

Sent from my SM-S938U using Tapatalk

 

[Coveyleader]

I sent a second arrow on a decent 6x6, and it was an Ulmer Edge. That head and arrow blew through that bull quartering away right side, then blew right through the humerus bone landing about 20 yards further. That was from only 54 yards though. On another big 6 I shot a 125gr Spitfire (1.5" 3-blade cut) through that bull hard quartering away from 59 yards, on a first shot. No issues. But yes, I do have that 32.5" draw though.

My moose I shot with an Exodus first shot at 54 yards, then a followup shot with a GR Fatal Steel broadside at 38 after he stood back up. He never took another step, fell over dead face first. That arrow buried up to the fletching on my 30" arrows, and the BH stuck in an offside rib.

You don’t count!

 

[Coveyleader]

They’re not small, get close and shoot them in the vitals with the first shot. I wait for as close to broadside shots as possible. Off angle shots are asking for trouble. Being patient and waiting for a better shot may not result in a dead elk every time but at least you’re not wounding them.

No doubt about that!

 

[HunterGatherer]

Not sure there is any benefit to shooting a mech if your first choice is a fixed head and your hypothetical follow up is only 40-60 yds ( in the example you gave). Now if your follow up shots are 70-120 yds then yes, you may benefit from the forgiveness/accuracy of a mech but then you may also be running out of juice at those distances (depending on your specific setup) and penetration might be an issue. I would definitely choose a small diameter mech over a larger one if this is the scenario I’m preparing for. BUT at long distances the mechs will likely have a different POI due to the reduced drag vs a fixed. There are a lot of variables…
For me, it’s simpler just to shoot the same head and practice long distance shooting until you’re good enough to consistently hit those long follow ups with your first choice head.

Hard quartering away shots are super tough. The one follow up I have taken in that scenario was a bull I had hit a little low with my first shot. He trotted out to 92 and stopped, looking back over his shoulder. My second arrow caught him in the ham and opened the femoral. He went down real fast after that. The first shot would have been fatal but it’s nice to get another one in them, even if it’s not the best placement, just to speed things up.

 

[Jbehredt]

No, it checks out. I use a grim reaper for that exact scenario. It’s also my canine target of opportunity arrow.

 

[Predator_SD]

THIS IS FLAWED THINKING.

Better to actually have some patience and wait until you have an extremely high percentage shot, 30-40 yards or even better way less (i average 15 yards) then make that first shot count.

Bowhunting is about being patient, disciplined, ethical, stealthy, getting close and lastly being lethal. Yes, this means you WILL NOT get a shot or harvest many animals you see. Bowhunting is NOT about shooting too far to be lethal the first time (most can’t shoot as far as they think they can) then attempting to take another ill advised low odds shot the second time on an acutely alert, wounded, and panicked animal all while trying to use an expandable to make up for it.

Yes, i realize im a dinosaur in my bow hunting philosophy as most 40 and under hunt this very way now because the Youtube’s taught them to. BUT, that doesn’t make those hunters right and me wrong just because “everyone is doing it”. Your grandfathers and great grandfathers would be cursing you out for these shenanigans in the field.

Have a good one and hunt hard.

 

[mtnbound]

You hear alot about carrying expandable broadheads for long follow up shots (saw it today on my favorite youtube channel) on elk. The more I think about this, its pretty flawed thinking. Lets say you shoot an elk, it runs out to 40-50-60 yds and is looking back, or is walking slowly away but at a hard angle. At severe angles, do you think you can maximize your penetration using an expandable head? You will most likely being shooting at a hard quartering animal at best. If I know it's a bad shot, I will try to get an arrow into the elk at any angle possible and hopefully drive the arrow deep which seems counterproductive with a mechanical.

I'm batting 1 for 4 on follow up shots where the elk actually gave me a good broadside shot after an initial bad hit. All the rest were quartering to me, or hard away. One I jumped 3-4 times, and never had a good follow up shot angle and he was always 80-100 yds ahead of me. When I finally caught him in his last bed, it ended up being a close shot, but very hard angled. I don't see the logic in this thought process. Internet hype?

Thoughts?

My understanding of your post is you are not using an expandable for your first shot but are asking about using them for a follow up shot.
If the expandable was tuned to match my pins then it could be an option but only if the animal gave me a vital shot. I will not take a bad shot angle with any broadhead, I have seen weird deflections at hard angles, if an animal is looking at you it’s probably gonna jump the string so the broadhead type doesn’t matter on a missed shot.
Bad shots happen and most are shooter caused and an expandable is not the fix, could it work, sure, as could a second fixed blade broadhead.
As far as penetration, an expandable can penetrate quite deep but the design and impact point affect that performance just like a fixed head.
If expandables are legal then use them as your first and if needed second shot and see what results you get.

 

[WhoGarrDen]

FOUR elk with bad shots? Out of how many?....

 

[HunterGatherer]

THIS IS FLAWED THINKING.

Better to actually have some patience and wait until you have an extremely high percentage shot, 30-40 yards or even better way less (i average 15 yards) then make that first shot count.

Bowhunting is about being patient, disciplined, ethical, stealthy, getting close and lastly being lethal. Yes, this means you WILL NOT get a shot or harvest many animals you see. Bowhunting is NOT about shooting too far to be lethal the first time (most can’t shoot as far as they think they can) then attempting to take another ill advised low odds shot the second time on an acutely alert, wounded, and panicked animal all while trying to use an expandable to make up for it.

Yes, i realize im a dinosaur in my bow hunting philosophy as most 40 and under hunt this very way now because the Youtube’s taught them to. BUT, that doesn’t make those hunters right and me wrong just because “everyone is doing it”. Your grandfathers and great grandfathers would be cursing you out for these shenanigans in the field.

Have a good one and hunt hard.

He’s not talking about the initial shot. He’s talking about a follow up shot after the animal is already hit. The ethics that apply to the first shot do not necessarily apply to the follow up shot. Even a poor second shot is better than no second shot.

 

[Oldffemt]

He’s not talking about the initial shot. He’s talking about a follow up shot after the animal is already hit. The ethics that apply to the first shot do not necessarily apply to the follow up shot. Even a poor second shot is better than no second shot.

What predator sd and I are saying is get close, be patient and you won’t need a second shot. Stop buying into the narrative that you just have to kill an animal. We all like elk meat, but we don’t honestly count on it for survival. Therefore you should be making your shots count or not shooting. If you don’t have good enough judgement to tell the difference, you should not be archery hunting.
I’m pretty disgusted with the amount of elk I see wounded now that the IG bros have popularized flinging arrows on a whim. I’ve watched people do it first hand (antelope, from a distance) and it’s just not right. Get close enough that you know your first shot will do the job or wait for a better opportunity.
I’ve wounded exactly one in over 30 years of archery elk that I wasn’t able to recover. Haven’t killed one in 3 years now but that’s ok, I still have a full quiver and a pocket full of tags for this year.

 

[HunterGatherer]

What predator sd and I are saying is get close, be patient and you won’t need a second shot. Stop buying into the narrative that you just have to kill an animal. We all like elk meat, but we don’t honestly count on it for survival. Therefore you should be making your shots count or not shooting. If you don’t have good enough judgement to tell the difference, you should not be archery hunting.
I’m pretty disgusted with the amount of elk I see wounded now that the IG bros have popularized flinging arrows on a whim. I’ve watched people do it first hand (antelope, from a distance) and it’s just not right. Get close enough that you know your first shot will do the job or wait for a better opportunity.
I’ve wounded exactly one in over 30 years of archery elk that I wasn’t able to recover. Haven’t killed one in 3 years now but that’s ok, I still have a full quiver and a pocket full of tags for this year.

100% wait for that perfect FIRST shot. Once you have an arrow in an animal there is no good reason NOT to keep shooting at it, even if you’re certain your first shot is a killing shot, until it goes down and expires, or is out of sight. Follow up shots are not to fix an error , they’re an insurance policy and just expedites the whole process.

 

[nphunter]

I have zero worry’s about penetration with an expandable out of a well tuned bow. I have a lot of examples of expandables blowing though elk at multiple distances. Trypans, Dead Meat and Hyde’s, two rear deploying and an over the top deploy.

I’ve also hit elk in the shoulder with an 80lb bow at under 20 with fixed heads and lost them due to no penetration.

I carry 1 fixed head incase I’m very close up and there is a chance to shoot through grass or other light objects that might deploy a mech. For 99% of shots I’m using a mechanical head.

I’m currently shooting 73lb, 430gr arrow and 27.5” draw.

As far as shot distance I’m not going to argue with anyone but I’ve personally had more follow up and poor shots with initial shots under 20 than over 60. I also shot a lot and am a very good shot with my bow and don’t take a shot unless I’m confident I can make a good shot.

 

[Coveyleader]

FOUR elk with bad shots? Out of how many?....

I had to edit that, from "initial bad hit to " Initial Hit" As a couple of them were hit well, but ran out and stopped and I shot them again.

To answer your question, "Many"

 

[Beendare]

I think the only flawed thinking is assuming that your BH flys the same as your FP's at 70y/80y.
Isn't this like shooting a rifle without adjusting the scope?

It amazes me that many trust the advertising saying they fly like FP's when shooting longer distances without actually testing/knowing where their BH arrow is hitting,

The typical mech head is 3x longer than a field point with small fins....likely it's not flying exactly the same at 80y.

Shouldn't guys be verifying their BH arrow accuracy at the ranges they are shooting?

 

[Coveyleader]

He’s not talking about the initial shot. He’s talking about a follow up shot after the animal is already hit. The ethics that apply to the first shot do not necessarily apply to the follow up shot. Even a poor second shot is better than no second shot.

This is exactly what I'm referring to, not the first shot, but after the first shot has taken place and a second shot is needed at "distance". Being that the animals are most likely to be quartering hard away, or towards you, doesn't it make more sense to have a BH that will drive though on a less than desirable follow up? Reading above, it sounds like guys have no issues due to lack of penetration at distance using mechanicals.

I've only had one follow up shot that was far for me (about 45 yds) on an antelope with a small mechanical, and come to think of it, even with my low poundage setup, it penetrated well, but obviously the structure on an antelope vs an elk is night and day.