Fitness Standards

[Poser]

The benefits of running thread got me thinking: A set of standards. Goals for achieving a well rounded, reasonably high, but attainable level of fitness for mountain hunting in tangible units of measurement. i.e. "If you can do this list, you should be good to go"

For example:

Conditioning Standards:
2000m Row in 7:00
5000m Row in 18:30
5k Run in 22:00
10k Run in 50:00
100 Burpees in 6:00 ?

Strength Standards:
2x Body Weight Deadlift
1.75x Bodyweight Back Squat
1.5x Body Weight Front Squat
1.25x Body Weight Clean

Add, alter or contribute.

Maybe a standard for a 10 inch box step up with loaded pack that is X (50?) % of body weight? And, perhaps the same test with a fixed standard "Ultralight" pack weight of 35 lbs?

 

[jmez]

No way to come up with "standards" for this. I'll never, and could never run a 5K in 22:00. Low 28's is really good for me. I don't "max out anymore" but am above on the strength standards where I quit. My hunting partner could run it in less than 22 and he wouldn't pass the strength standards. We both do fine in the mountains, both hunting and packing game.

Those strength standards are heavy. There are a lot of athletes that wouldn't meet those. I can meet the row times, but laugh at a 22m 5K. I really don't think there is any way to quantify this and I also don't think it is necessary.

 

[JP100]

I would have to agree with the above comment. No way to standardize mountain fitness.
There are heaps of guys out there who are fit as hell but cant walk in the mountains and vise versa. As a guide who used to train heavy at a gym I have seen alot of ways you can be "fit" for the mountains. you dont need all that strength, you dont want to be too big and heavy, extra muscle saps energy and usually in a hunting scenario you have less than ideal nutritional input.
Ask guys who go on alot of guided mountain hunts what their guides are like. most are scrawny ass guys who can walk on day on little food and water but are not overly strong. not saying that strength does not help but most guys who walk alot in the mountains are light, less total weight you have to move the better.
I walk 8-10 hours a day 6-7 days a week on a glacier over the summer and hunt all year. Big guys can beat me with a heavy load but I would consider my self reasonably mountain fit, im 5'10" and 155lbs.
Interesting seeing the body types of some of the guides I work with. One guy(a Sherpa) is about 5'8" and 190lbs and he can walk like a demon. Some of the fastest/strongest guys on the ice are 6'3-4" and about 190-200lbs.

Honestly I think this whole gym training for hunting is abit stupid. get out of the gym and walk up a hill. I have never once seen a squat rack or a row machine on a mountain. Train for what you will be doing.

 

[Poser]

Honestly I think this whole gym training for hunting is abit stupid. get out of the gym and walk up a hill. I have never once seen a squat rack or a row machine on a mountain. Train for what you will be doing.

You could apply that to anything. I've never seen a squat rack on a football field or a ski slope. I've also never seen a foam archery target or a shooting bench in the mountains. Certainly, if one cannot transfer their training in the gym to the function they need to be able to perform, it is useless. Much like if you cannot transfer your marksmanship on the range to performance in the field, it is useless for the purposes of hunting.

With that in mind, consider the above to only be relevant within the parameters of "training for hunting." If you are sufficiently fit to hunt where and how you want to hunt without getting physically wrecked, it does not apply. If you can confidently take the shots you want and need to be able to make, you probably don't need to spend much or even any time at the ranger either. For guides and sherpas, their tasks at hand are just another day at the office. Likewise, there are guys who do enough real world shooting that time dedicated to the range is not necessary and perhaps entirely uninteresting.

 

[bootleather]

I have to disagree with most of what poser has as conditioning standards. Deadlifting 135 or 225 to failure is way more conducive to hunting strength and endurance. As goes for all of these workouts. 1 rep max had almost zero real world benefits except for trying to prove you have bigger plums. (And I used to be that guy dl- 445 @190lbs) I wised up and now hit 8-15 reps as heavy as I can go to achieve those numbers. Endurance is the name of the game. That being said you gotta train in the mountains to execute in the mountains. Gym time definitely also has its place in my training regime. Just my 2 cents

 

[Jason Snyder]

FWIW, studies have shown that endurance athletes get the most benefit from doing 3-5 reps when weightlifting, rather than high reps.

 

[RosinBag]

I stay fit all year and when it comes to back country hunting I think it is about 10% of the equation. I have hunted with ultra athletes that have done well and failed in the woods along with the couch potato that has also done well and failed in the woods.

That common denominator to doing well is being mentally strong and fortitude. It isn't a race in the mountains and it shouldn't be or you are liable to get hurt.

There is no cookie cutter body that will tell you if you are mentally strong. I will always take a mentally tough dude over the fittest guy who folds when the going gets tough. Because in the backcountry the going will get tough at some point.

All those numbers are for people that need that for themselves to feel better about themselves.

As always, just my opinion.

 

[Take-a-knee]

The benefits of running thread got me thinking: A set of standards.

For example:

Conditioning Standards:
2000m Row in 7:00
5000m Row in 18:30
5k Run in 22:00
10k Run in 50:00
100 Burpees in 6:00 ?

Strength Standards:
2x Body Weight Deadlift
1.75x Bodyweight Back Squat
1.5x Body Weight Front Squat
1.25x Body Weight Clean

?

I'd say you are about 20% above what I'd consider a functional standard. I'd suggest Rippetoe's barbell strength standards at his intermeadiate level. I'd also suggest being able to carry a 45# pack, on a level gravel road, at a 14min/mile pace for an extended distance.

NYFD used to use a stepmill profile interval test, wearing a HR monitor. They had a max HR that, if you exceeded, you failed on the spot.

 

[Take-a-knee]

FWIW, studies have shown that endurance athletes get the most benefit from doing 3-5 reps when weightlifting, rather than high reps.

That is because most of them are little-girl weak.

 

[Shawn Hultquist]

I dont know if I can agree to these as a standard or a benchmark. ok 2K row in 7min ok take someone who is 65 inches vs someone who is 76 inches in height theres at least a 1;30 min difference. look around next time at the box and compare your times with a woman or someone who is 10-12 inches shorter than you are. you'll see what i'm talking about. same applies for the 5K row. personally for me I'm a 8 min and 21 min on these rows with damper on 8 I'm 42 and 5'10 weigh 220 and stay around 10% body fat. I probably demand more O2 than you do just gonna guess that. for the running i could probably get there if I tried really hard but to be honest I dont want to because a 20 min 3.2 mile run isnt going to do much for me when I need to be on all day cruise control @ 80% like an endurance athlete would be. and Buck Furpees they have absolutely no place on a mountain. I've done enough of them in my 13 years of doing crossfit and 25 years of olympic weightlifting. as far as strength goes yes you need to have some strength but not so big that you cant move (Dont ask me how I know this). if your looking to change up your programming to get ready for the mountain switch over to cfendurance or follow OPT (james fitsgerald) hes an old schooler like me and really has a good grip on training for all day type stuff. Hes a good dude I met him when I went to the games.

All kidding aside. If those are your goals/benchmarks then you shoot for the moon it will only make you better stronger faster and sharper on the mountain. I've only been high altitude four times and I know what I can and cant do. I have worked on it and have come to a happy medium. I like to head to mountains weighing 200-205 loosing some of my strength but I will gained in the cardio/endurance end. they wont be anywhere near your standards.. I do train with a mask to simulate the higher altitude and it helps

 

[Poser]

I have to disagree with most of what poser has as conditioning standards. Deadlifting 135 or 225 to failure is way more conducive to hunting strength and endurance. As goes for all of these workouts. 1 rep max had almost zero real world benefits except for trying to prove you have bigger plums. (And I used to be that guy dl- 445 @190lbs) I wised up and now hit 8-15 reps as heavy as I can go to achieve those numbers. Endurance is the name of the game. That being said you gotta train in the mountains to execute in the mountains. Gym time definitely also has its place in my training regime. Just my 2 cents

I'm not arguing with you here, simply conversing ideas. I agree that endurance is the "name of the game." But, there is also the concept of "Strength for endurance" in which time to exhaustion is increased by one's ability to handle the task for a prolonged period. In other words, if athlete A can put out a certain amount of power for X amount of time and athlete B, who is stronger, can put out X amount of power for a longer period of time, does Athlete B not have better endurance?

The thing here is that it is not just strength and not just endurance. It is a combination of these two factors. A scrawny ultra distance runner may have great endurance for running, but would buckle under the load of a super heavy pack. A dedicated powerlifter may have the ability to toss a heavy pack around like a sheet of paper, but lack the endurance capabilities to hump it up a mountain.

The two factors certainly contribute to each other and, to be fair, the percents above, which are a pretty high standard (but why set the bar low?) are based on body weight % and not arbitrary numbers. Also, for pure strength training, this would presume heavy weight, low rep training which tends not to build mass like a body building program would, so its not necessary to be "big and jacked" to hit those types of strength ratios. An endurance athlete can benefit significantly from the ability to put out more power. Also, the fatigue of direct strength training done before direct endurance training, tends to make the endurance training more effective.

Maybe its a dead end road of thinking, but with all of these "how fit is fit enough", "What should I be doing" and "Is running beneficial" threads, I'm wondering if there is some way to formulate a "standard" for training. Maybe the numbers above are the high standard -something to aspire to. For example, I can't hit all of those strength percents, and the rowing comes up short, but I have run those times in races. I look at that and I see where my weaknesses are. So, if you can run a 5k in sub 22 minutes, but can't backsquat the equivalent of your bodyweight, you are fast, but relatively weak. Especially when training on your own, its easy to do the things you are good at. Big guys stay slow and strong, scrawny guys stay fast and weak. Maybe, if there was some kind of generally accepted relative standard for strength, power, endurance, speed etc there would be a way that a person who is training or intending to train for hunting could look to for guidance and comparison. A "combine" of sorts. Most of the guys here are looking at fitness as a ends to better hunting. While extreme weight loss etc are perhaps different issues entirely, losing a reasonable amount of weight or just being generally more fit are going to be results of efficient training.

Maybe it overcomplicates the subject severely. Also bare in mind that all artificial training is just that: artificial training. Obviously you don't row in the mountains, it is a measure of cardio power output. You usually don't pull a tire behind you, carry sand bags in your hands or do burpees either. Those are means of simulating certain tasks and/or general conditioning that potentially benefits performance. I'm just thinking out loud here.

 

[Shawn Hultquist]

I hear what your saying bud and I'll agree with you in general for your list of goals. Go get them if your close the sky is the limit and I understand how your adapting because you may or may not have a real mountain to climb.

Heres an example for my line of work and its the only thing I can do to simulate hunting the mountains. Every third day when I get to work I put on my bunker gear and air pack now I'm 287 pounds and I walk 30 flights of stairs ride the elevator down (Because this is the fastest way so I can get going back up again) get to the bottom and we walk up the stairs again. Its sucks and its horrible it never gets any easier and if you miss a day its even worse. But as a flatlander who visits the 11K feet club once a year this is all I can do to train for it.

So adapt and overcome and motivate yourself because in just four short months your gonna be chasing screaming bulls ... Best of luck

Shawn

 

[Ironman8]

What year did you go to the Games, Shawn? And do you feel that being at that level of fitness, with that training style, you were well prepared for mountain hunting? Or would you still lean more towards endurance?

 

[Shawn Hultquist]

What year did you go to the Games, Shawn? And do you feel that being at that level of fitness, with that training style, you were well prepared for mountain hunting? Or would you still lean more towards endurance?

I went to the games in 2005 and I will clarify I went as a spectator. shouldve been a little more clear when I said I made it to the games. at that time I was in my prime at 33 years old and had been doing xfit for three years. I did meet some amazing people when it was all first starting. I finished in the 30's in the regional spectrum.

In 2005 I was the same as I am now just a little leaner then compared to now. Now-a-days I enjoy life and baked potatoe with my steak if I want too. ack then there wasnt anything that I felt I couldnt handle or do. Back then though I didnt hunt out west only at the ranch in Nebraska 3300ft elevation. But I was in terrific shape and felt as if I could run down a Impala and I followed xfit main site to the T. I had quit lifting Oly 6 days a week and I did feel a lot better. I went straight paleo and got down to the 85's (187 lbs) and honestly I looked like I had gotten the ninja sickness. Truth is I had a extremely hard time functioning at work and staying that lean all the time. I would lay in bed at night and cramp up. I'd get to the fire station and hang 1000 bags on me just so I could function. I would say that I was too lean for my mesomorphic body composition to be on the mountain. I wouldve been more of a burden on the mountain at that state. So I went back to 94's (205-206 lbs) and I absolutely felt amazing and looked better. when I was 94's (sorry years of being a oly lifter everything is in kg) I did endurance type training with the exception of the swim. I have a hard time floating. dont laugh muscles sink.


Hope this helps. shawn

 

[Shawn Hultquist]

Its all in how your body responds to what your output is. Make your own goals and conquer what you want in life. someone whos 65 years old may look at those goals and say oh well its not worth it I cant do half that and decide that he doesnt want to go fullfill his dream of bagging a big bull.

Or poser could be the one who motivates enough people to get off the couch and betters their life and gets into shape. never stop dreaming and reach for the stars. When I was a kid I had a broom stick horse called Dynomite and I would win both bareback and saddle bronc world championships every year. Dream Big and go get it. Poser youve got my motor running now and Buddy let me tell you what Im baselining these all week now and Im going to get to these numbers Bud

 

[jack88]

I just book an extra day or two of vacation.

 

[afteamroper]

If you want a great test of your hunting fitness level and shooting skills find the nearest Train To Hunt event and compete in it. I had the most confidence in my fitness and shooting last year during hunting season after competing. It might not be the most accurate measure, but there is in my opinion no greater or more accurate measuring tool out there right now for hunters to gauge there current fitness level for hunting season. If you have any question about the challenges or just Train To Hunt in general feel free to PM me. Brock Ackers has a great write about the AZ regional event from this past weekend http://www.rokslide.com/forums/showthread.php?28647-2015-Arizona-Regional-Event&p=332844#post332844.

 

[Poser]

Its all in how your body responds to what your output is. Make your own goals and conquer what you want in life. someone whos 65 years old may look at those goals and say oh well its not worth it I cant do half that and decide that he doesnt want to go fullfill his dream of bagging a big bull.

To be fair, Rokslide's description reads: "Rokslide is “the place” to connect with other hardcore, over-the-top hunting fanatics." We're talking hardcore, backcountry hunting here.

 

[jmez]

Guess it is more semantics but I think those would be good goals but not necessarily standards. I think the gold standard is to go hunt and find out.

 

[Jason Snyder]

Guess it is more semantics but I think those would be good goals but not necessarily standards. I think the gold standard is to go hunt and find out.

So true. I can hit all of the aerobics, but I know for a fact I wouldn't hit the strength marks. It's not that I couldn't, I could easily squat over 2x my body weight in college when I lifted a lot. I haven't even touched a barbell in over a year, but I get around just fine in the mountains both with or without a heavy load.