Explain the use case for synthetic insulation

[<cascadehunter>]

When/how do you use a syntethic insulation piece like the Arc Atom or Kuiu Kenai? I know a lot of guys like them, and im trying to evaluate how/if it would fit in for me personally. Say you have a basic 4 piece system. Base, mid layer (grid fleece), puffy (down), hardshell. Are you replacing the grid fleece as an active layer in colder temps? Are you just adding it as piece #5?
In addition, how does a synthetic insulation compare in use to a fleece with a soft-ish shell like the Sitka Ambient or FL Navigator? These I really know nothing about.

 

[lost_in_the_wma]

I hadn’t heard if these particular jackets but from looking at them they’re trying to do contradictory things, it said something like “stay warm without overheating” ok well nothing can do everything, a lot of times when weather is variable the reality is you just have to take off layers and pack them. This is coming more from backpacking experience than hunting, I’m in south Florida now where generally cold is not the issue lol.


To answer more specifically though, base layers have some use cases for being able to dry relatively quickly (because sweat is often inevitable), being fairly anti microbial (because multi day trips doesn’t always allow laundry) but personally I prefer merino because it’s quite anti microbial and dries quickly enough usually.

For puffy stuff like jackets and sleeping bags, the only use case is if you’re allergic to down and must sacrifice quality to avoid getting allergy symptoms or if you want to avoid the supply chain of down production.

That’s all my two cents I can throw at you, hope something in there was useful lol

 

[ozyclint]

Synthetic sleeping bag in cold damp conditions. That's what I use in Westland New Zealand.
Think PNW, SE AK but wetter.

 

[TaperPin]

Many guys who spend a lot of time outdoors don’t like down because wet down is as useful as wet newspapers and they would rather have all synthetic, even if that includes synthetic fill in a puffy. When I first came here it was a surprise that everyone either has a down puffy and pants or wants them.

Growing up there was a well respected guy in town I had never met who pushed his luck too far wearing a puffy in freezing rain as his primary insulating layer under a shell of some kind and didn’t make it back to his truck before hypothermia got him. Of course now I think it was poor judgement to not better manage moisture, and to not stop and build a fire sooner, not the fault of the puffy, but it had a chilling effect on the adults at the time who started teaching us young kids to not rely on down. Down is so light and comfortable it has a place, but I bet half the guys that use it don’t fully understand or respect its limitations.

 

[PathFinder]

1. In extremely wet conditions, where keeping stuff dry isn't realistic.
2. For more active pieces.

Lighter synthetic jackets are good for high exertion in extreme cold.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

 

[Maverick1]

Synthetic for damp or wet conditions. And, as an outer layer for bowhunting. (The outer face fabric of most down garments is typically nylon, which is not quiet, and gets worse the colder it gets.) Down for greater warmth / lighter garment. Couple of examples:

• Sitting over a waterhole with the bow: synthetic (quieter)
• Sitting at camp: down (warmer, lighter)
• Glassing: down
• Anything when rain expected: synthetic

Fleece is kind of useless, IMO. Have not used it in about 10-15 years.

• Very low CLO value (much lower insulation value than either down or synthetic).
• No real CLO value when wet. And absorbs water, weighs a lot when it gets wet.
• Quiet (but that's about it). Can get the nearly the same level of quietness with a synthetic outer face garment.

 

[ozyclint]

What's CLO?
I'm trying to piece together the acronym but I'm not getting it.

 

[Poser]

Heavy, wet snow conditions pretty much suck for down. Sure, you can put your shell on over your down puffy, but heavy wet snow, falling from the sky, falling from branches and brushing up up against you in the timber will overwhelm a shell fairly quickly and then you will start building condensation up inside of the shell and wet out your down. Heavy wet snow will also cave your tent walls in significantly and cause crazy condensation build up inside of a single wall tent for the same reason.

 

[justinspicher]

Synthetic user here. I switched from merino and down about two years ago after having durability issues and bigger issues with the customer service from the parent companies.

So far my synthetic has worked very well for me, I’m always learning on how to manage moisture, every outing is a bit different.

I’m probably a bit different from most folks as I don’t use a rain jacket or soft shell as my outer layer, I just use a synthetic puffy.

 

[mtnbound]

When/how do you use a syntethic insulation piece like the Arc Atom or Kuiu Kenai? I know a lot of guys like them, and im trying to evaluate how/if it would fit in for me personally. Say you have a basic 4 piece system. Base, mid layer (grid fleece), puffy (down), hardshell. Are you replacing the grid fleece as an active layer in colder temps? Are you just adding it as piece #5?
In addition, how does a synthetic insulation compare in use to a fleece with a soft-ish shell like the Sitka Ambient or FL Navigator? These I really know nothing about.

Going off your 4 piece system. The Kuiu Kenai is your puffy layer I also have down puffy’s if the weather will cold and dry.

The FL Navigator could replace your grid fleece, but for me active insulation doesn’t really work. It’s designed to work for certain types of folks, in certain temp ranges doing certain amount of physical exertion. I run warm and I find it best to only be in a base layer if I know I have some big exertion coming up. If after the physical exertion I need insulation then I’ll throw another layer on.

For my experience I would not use an active insulation layer under a puffy because you are limiting its effectiveness with an over-layer and if you are wearing a puffy likely it’s cold enough that you would benefit more from a regular insulation layer. There could of course be times when a puffy is needed first thing in the morning but it warms up a bit and then an active insulation layer might be beneficial, but again it’s all based to your body type, temp and activity level.

Synthetics do a couple of things great, wick moisture off your body and dry fast. For me wool allows for better temperature management than synthetics and feels better.

Each have the place and you need to test for yourself to see what’s works for you.

 

[lost_in_the_wma]

This has been extremely enlightening for me. I have friends who got in situations where their down fill sleeping bag got wet and spent a miserable night trying to dry it over the fire, burning it some in the process. A lot of people use waterproof stuff sacks for their down sleeping bag for that reason.

Great points from you guys. These days as I’m getting finally just getting into hunting in a very hot climate I’m just wearing the lightest layer of camo possible which is also synthetic now that I think about it. But I’ve learned from the experience of you guys here for when I’ll be back in the cold.

 

[sempervirens]

I love my down bags, but they stay in the tent. For clothing I've moved toward synthetics. Because they don't absorb water, you can tune your layers to allow sweat and water to evaporate, while keeping wind and cold out.

The best thing merino wool is good for though is managing body odor. Polyester socks and t-shirts stink!

US special forces came up with this interesting chart for their layering system
Level 1 thin baselayers
Level 2 mid-weight waffle pattern fleece
Level 3 heavyweight fleece
Level 4 thin windbreaker (counterintuitively worn under the fleece as a vapor barrier)
Level 5 non-insulated softshell
Level 6 goretex raingear
Level 7 heavy insulated parka and pants


history on their layering system here:

The Protective Combat Uniform (PCU) History

The story goes... In 2002, a member of the Special Operations Forces made a call from a crater in the Hindu Kush, Afghanistan to the SOF ...

www.ontariogeardo.com

 

[5MilesBack]

Synthetics do a couple of things great, wick moisture off your body and dry fast.

I haven't found a synthetic base layer that can keep up with my sweat load. So the synthetic base layer just slides around over the sweat while the sweat lays on my skin. I HATE that. I find lightweight merino to work great as a base because it takes the sweat off my skin. On the other hand, I find merino "insulation" layers to be worthless to me, as they just don't add much warmth for me at all, especially given the heavier weights. I find fleece to be a great midlayer, weight dependent on activity level. Nice thing about fleece......is that if it gets wet, you can just shake out the water and it's dry again.

100% of the time I use my Kenai, I have a fleece underneath it. But most of my Kenai use is just around town in the winter, or sitting around camp before hitting the bag.

 

[elsb0048]

In my experience there's a fair bit of variation in synthetic insulation. I'll loosely categorize into: 'active insulation' 'midlayer' and 'static insulation'. I have one in each genre.

The 'active' insulation is a replacement for a fleece for me. Mine (mammut rime light flex IN) has ~30gsm of synthetic fill and is body-mapped, some regions have no insulation, only a windshell, some grid fleece. This is a competitor for the 'polartec alpha'/'alpha-direct pieces a-la sitka ambient. I do intend to buy one of the 'alpha' fleeces for experimentation.

I midlayer pieces are potentially a replacement for high-pile fleece + windshell/softshell or for a lightweight down puffy (think 0.375" loft 'micropuff') Has the benefit of moisture tolerance if you sweat into it unlike down. Is usually one piece rather than two like a fleece+windshell.
~50-60gsm insulation. (mine is rab xenair light)

static insulation is a replacement for a down puffy coat you're looking for 80-120gsm depending on how warm. Mine is 100/120ish gsm (rab generator alpine) and is suitable as a static piece down to say 15-20F or so, I've pushed it down below 10F with some midlayers.



I've found the 'active insulation' piece to be handy for warmish transition temps 40-60F, september alpine mule deer. I pair it with a sun hoodie and it comes out when windy, still hunting, & static, otherwise running sun hoodie only. It provides a little insulation and a little wind protection but is still relatively breathable.

The 'midlayer' piece gets the least use for me in the woods. I would usually categorize it as an active piece for still hunting in cold temps. 20F to 40F. Think rifle elk at elevation, november whitetails etc. The face fabric is a little noisy & fragile for much of the still-hunting terrain though and so I frequently use a fleece + soft shell for these hunts instead, especially since they're usually truck hunts for me and weight is less of a concern.

the 'static insulation' jacket gets a lot of use for me because I live in western washington and so I'm often willing to pay a weight penalty for a little more weather resilience. Really great for static transitional cold temps (30F +/- 5) where you could have light rain/wet snow etc.

 

[<cascadehunter>]

In my experience there's a fair bit of variation in synthetic insulation. I'll loosely categorize into: 'active insulation' 'midlayer' and 'static insulation'. I have one in each genre.

The 'active' insulation is a replacement for a fleece for me. Mine (mammut rime light flex IN) has ~30gsm of synthetic fill and is body-mapped, some regions have no insulation, only a windshell, some grid fleece. This is a competitor for the 'polartec alpha'/'alpha-direct pieces a-la sitka ambient. I do intend to buy one of the 'alpha' fleeces for experimentation.

I midlayer pieces are potentially a replacement for high-pile fleece + windshell/softshell or for a lightweight down puffy (think 0.375" loft 'micropuff') Has the benefit of moisture tolerance if you sweat into it unlike down. Is usually one piece rather than two like a fleece+windshell.
~50-60gsm insulation. (mine is rab xenair light)

static insulation is a replacement for a down puffy coat you're looking for 80-120gsm depending on how warm. Mine is 100/120ish gsm (rab generator alpine) and is suitable as a static piece down to say 15-20F or so, I've pushed it down below 10F with some midlayers.



I've found the 'active insulation' piece to be handy for warmish transition temps 40-60F, september alpine mule deer. I pair it with a sun hoodie and it comes out when windy, still hunting, & static, otherwise running sun hoodie only. It provides a little insulation and a little wind protection but is still relatively breathable.

The 'midlayer' piece gets the least use for me in the woods. I would usually categorize it as an active piece for still hunting in cold temps. 20F to 40F. Think rifle elk at elevation, november whitetails etc. The face fabric is a little noisy & fragile for much of the still-hunting terrain though and so I frequently use a fleece + soft shell for these hunts instead, especially since they're usually truck hunts for me and weight is less of a concern.

the 'static insulation' jacket gets a lot of use for me because I live in western washington and so I'm often willing to pay a weight penalty for a little more weather resilience. Really great for static transitional cold temps (30F +/- 5) where you could have light rain/wet snow etc.

I appreciate all of these responses.
elsb0048 I also live and hunt Western WA so I’ll ask you since you understand the conditions.
Rifle deer at 2-4k is my bread and butter.
At that time I’m using a merino blend t-shirt, FL Klammath grid fleece, Arc Cerium LT, Sitka Dewpoint.
I am very often cold when static but seldom if ever when active. I am also very often wet, it’s simply unavoidable.
Would it benefit me to ditch the Cerium in favor of a synthetic counterpart? And potentially something warmer?

 

[elsb0048]

I appreciate all of these responses.
elsb0048 I also live and hunt Western WA so I’ll ask you since you understand the conditions.
Rifle deer at 2-4k is my bread and butter.
At that time I’m using a merino blend t-shirt, FL Klammath grid fleece, Arc Cerium LT, Sitka Dewpoint.
I am very often cold when static but seldom if ever when active. I am also very often wet, it’s simply unavoidable.
Would it benefit me to ditch the Cerium in favor of a synthetic counterpart? And potentially something warmer?

I would say yes: there could be some benefit to switching away from the Cerium.
I also have a Cerium LT and I would generally categorize it as a summertime or desert puffy. It's very nice in dry environments with low temps down to about 40F, 30F with some layers. Great that it's so light. For most rifle deer I suspect you're not doing multi-day and so weight/bulk is less of a concern.

In wet environments you become tempted to put the Cerium under a shell and then if you sweat at all you start to wet it out and it loses insulation fast.

I've found with the high relative humidity in Western WA you may need a little more insulation value.
The other perk is that synthetic insulation pieces are usually a fair bit cheaper than down counterparts. I'd recommend looking for things marketed as 'Belay Jackets'. Rab Generator Alpine, Patagonia DAS parka, Arcteryx Dually, etc. These are mostly designed with a parka type fit to go over a shell.

 

[<cascadehunter>]

I would say yes: there could be some benefit to switching away from the Cerium.
I also have a Cerium LT and I would generally categorize it as a summertime or desert puffy. It's very nice in dry environments with low temps down to about 40F, 30F with some layers. Great that it's so light. For most rifle deer I suspect you're not doing multi-day and so weight/bulk is less of a concern.

In wet environments you become tempted to put the Cerium under a shell and then if you sweat at all you start to wet it out and it loses insulation fast.

I've found with the high relative humidity in Western WA you may need a little more insulation value.
The other perk is that synthetic insulation pieces are usually a fair bit cheaper than down counterparts. I'd recommend looking for things marketed as 'Belay Jackets'. Rab Generator Alpine, Patagonia DAS parka, Arcteryx Dually, etc. These are mostly designed with a parka type fit to go over a shell.

I don’t know that I could stomach putting an insulation layer over a shell….. I know the climbers do it so that a harness can remain over the top of a shell 24/7 but seems like a bad idea in a sustained rain.

 

[<cascadehunter>]

I couldn’t f

Synthetic user here. I switched from merino and down about two years ago after having durability issues and bigger issues with the customer service from the parent companies.

So far my synthetic has worked very well for me, I’m always learning on how to manage moisture, every outing is a bit different.

I’m probably a bit different from most folks as I don’t use a rain jacket or soft shell as my outer layer, I just use a synthetic puffy.

Cant fathom not having a hardshell. I live in a hardshell and rubber boots once we enter the grey. Maybe all the more reason to go all synthetic.

 

[<cascadehunter>]

Synthetic for damp or wet conditions. And, as an outer layer for bowhunting. (The outer face fabric of most down garments is typically nylon, which is not quiet, and gets worse the colder it gets.) Down for greater warmth / lighter garment. Couple of examples:

• Sitting over a waterhole with the bow: synthetic (quieter)
• Sitting at camp: down (warmer, lighter)
• Glassing: down
• Anything when rain expected: synthetic

Fleece is kind of useless, IMO. Have not used it in about 10-15 years.

• Very low CLO value (much lower insulation value than either down or synthetic).
• No real CLO value when wet. And absorbs water, weighs a lot when it gets wet.
• Quiet (but that's about it). Can get the nearly the same level of quietness with a synthetic outer face garment.

What are you using where most people would have a fleece? Are you suggesting there’s a synthetic insulation solution for that spot? The pieces I know of I would expect to run way too hot to fill the role my grid fleece plays.

 

[elsb0048]

I don’t know that I could stomach putting an insulation layer over a shell….. I know the climbers do it so that a harness can remain over the top of a shell 24/7 but seems like a bad idea in a sustained rain.

it's 50/50 for me. My puffy and my shell are both sized large enough that I can go puffy over or puffy under.

I agree that for sustained rain puffy under is usually the move.

You can bump into a lot of mitigating circumstances though if you're under a little bit of tree or a tarp when you stop so it's only misting or dripping, but still wet/damp enough to impact a down puff.

There's also a lot of windy/blustery damp/moist but not actually wet conditions where I'll be wearing the shell for the wind with all zips open and I don't necesarily want to have to remove the shell when I stop to glass for 20-40 minutes I just toss the puff on over the top and stuff it back in the bag when I get up and start moving again. In a similar scenario down puff I might be tempted to put it under the shell but I'll still be hot enough from moving that I wet out the puff and kill the loft.

that said in truly sustained wet I don't typically spend a ton of static time. Visibility isn't great for long distance glassing so I'm often spending my time still hunting in those conditions and rarely need the puff.