expensive vs inexpensive ML (open sites)

[huntsd]

Newb here looking to build a Nevada legal ML. Is there big advantage using a high end ML(arrowhead) vs a lower end (CVA accura) in open site states since you are going to be limited by your eyes?

Also would appreciate some recommendations. In my research Thompson Center Encore seems to come up a lot as a good ML

 

[bayoublaster7527]

Hard to say…… with an open sights system in only one state, the juice may not be worth the squeeze. I have an Arrowhead and I can’t say enough good things about the rifle and Luke down in AZ. That being said they go for a lot of coin these days. I bought mine intending to hunt multiple states with it through the years. I have used it in open sights states and scoped states. Nothing wrong with a CVA accura either. With open sights, the limiting factor really is your eyes and the size of the animal vs the size of the front sight.

 

[ElDiablito]

Is there big advantage using a high end ML(arrowhead) vs a lower end (CVA accura) in open site states since you are going to be limited by your eyes?

No.

And if you wanted to you could build a sml to match the performance of an Arrowhead for a lot less money. With open sights, just about any modern muzzleloader will shoot better than your eyes/sights.

I currently own about 35 muzzys - smokeless to traditional. CVAs are junk, so I wouldn’t personally consider anything they sell. Lots of other well-designed and built options. TC Encore, TC Omega, Knights, Woodman Arms Patriot, etc.

 

[huntsd]

No.

And if you wanted to you could build a sml to match the performance of an Arrowhead for a lot less money. With open sights, just about any modern muzzleloader will shoot better than your eyes/sights.

I currently own about 35 muzzys - smokeless to traditional. CVAs are junk, so I wouldn’t personally consider anything they sell. Lots of other well-designed and built options. TC Encore, TC Omega, Knights, Woodman Arms Patriot, etc.

SML??

I'd use this in utah too. Will just forgo the 1x scope and stick with 1 system for both states so I am not tinkering.

I just don't know enough about ML. I figure am limited to what 150 yards? SO if I shoot a 3 inch group with a cheap ML or 1 inch group with expensive. It'll kill a deer either way

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

CVAs are junk

Meh, my optima and accura with globe sights have performed perfectly fine <150yds and killed things just fine. Others might offer better fit/finish but there is noting that seems particulary junk to me for a utilitarian open sight muzzy. To each their own though.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

SO if I shoot a 3 inch group with a cheap ML or 1 inch group with expensive. It'll kill a deer either way

Pretty much how I look at it. Don't need flash and dash for that.

 

[Wrench]

I have a couple hundred in my accuracy rigs. I can hold close to if not moa to 300 in perfect conditions. My palma rig has about $1000 worth of sights....and it can do incredible accuracy to 1k.

Performance has a price but it's not necessary until you're into the holdover beyond your reticle or sight system.

 

[ElDiablito]

SML??

I'd use this in utah too. Will just forgo the 1x scope and stick with 1 system for both states so I am not tinkering.

I just don't know enough about ML. I figure am limited to what 150 yards? SO if I shoot a 3 inch group with a cheap ML or 1 inch group with expensive. It'll kill a deer either way

SML - smokeless powder- rated muzzleloader.

Much further than 150 yards depending on your eyes and sights. Most guys should be able to shoot to 200-250 yards with the right sights and loads. I’ve killed deer at close to 300 with peep sights.

Others might offer better fit/finish but there is noting that seems particulary junk to me for a utilitarian open sight muzzy.

Clunky, poor fit/finish, crappy ergonomics, etc. Add to that all the issues guys have with CVAs like inconsistent bores. I’d be embarrassed to carry a CVA. But more power to you bro. If someone really wanted a cheap starter rifle (CVA) I’d say buy the cheapest you can find - the Wolf.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Clunky, poor fit/finish, crappy ergonomics, etc. Add to that all the issues guys have with CVAs like inconsistent bores. I’d be embarrassed to carry a CVA. But more power to you bro. If someone really wanted a cheap starter rifle (CVA) I’d say buy the cheapest you can find - the Wolf.

Hasn't stopped me from killing things <150yd and dragging it accross the ground crawling up to animals to get <150yd. Eros are functionally fine on the optima/accura, can't speak to the wolf. Lol at embarrassed. Its hunting not a fashion show.

Keep in mind I hunt CO with full bore required (50cal in some cases) and not smokeless so distance is limited so not alot of point in over complicating it. IF you can shoot sabots, smaller bores, and/or smokeless that truly opens up longer ranges then that might merit something nicer. In CO I just need a hammer to pound the nail.

 

[Chris in TN]

I think you're way ahead of yourself at this point.

You need to figure out what *YOU* can do with open or peep sights, before you worry about what any particular rifle can do.

Get a .22lr trainer of some sort with a peep sight setup and see how you do at 75-100-150-200 yards. Figure that out first.

My experience is that on my best day, with peep sights, I'm gonna need to stay within maybe 150 yards on a game animal. I might hit a big white steel plate much further, but a brown animal standing in brown grass, needs to be awfully close.

 

[Wrench]

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

@ElDiablito what do you think the realistic lethal range for a 50cal full bore projectile using black powder is? Disregard open sight aspect. No sabots or smokeless or <50cal. Maybe there is more meat on the bone than I give credit.

 

[Chris in TN]

@ElDiablito what do you think the realistic lethal range for a 50cal full bore projectile using black powder is?

Are you asking him about the realistic range to *HIT SOMETHING* with an open sighted BP rifle?

There's a guy on the Cast Boolits forum who practiced out to 500:

Cast Boolits

This is the dedicated cast bullet forum!

castboolits.gunloads.com

If you're asking about the max range at which a .50 caliber conical has the power to penetrate and damage both lungs of a game animal and kill it cleanly, I'd say you'd run out of accuracy hundreds of yards before it ran out of 'power'. Obviously that depends on the bullet itself, but once projectiles go below the speed of sound, drag characteristics change, and velocity decay slows down greatly.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

If you're asking about the max range at which a .50 caliber conical has the power to penetrate and damage both lungs of a game animal and kill it cleanly,

I was asking this.

 

[Flymost]

I’ve got great accuracy out of my crappy cva out to 200 open sighted, but with any timber it’s hard for the eyes to do their job past 150. Utah opens up some range though. Buddy shot a nice bull at 400 with a red dot and an arrowhead mz.

 

[Wrench]

@ElDiablito what do you think the realistic lethal range for a 50cal full bore projectile using black powder is? Disregard open sight aspect. No sabots or smokeless or <50cal. Maybe there is more meat on the bone than I give credit.

My retained velocity @ 500 with a 460 no excuse is 797. I would bet my house that gets through lungs on any broadside animal.

Accuracy is a whole different discussion....but if you watched my 300 yard clay piegon vids you know it's 100% possible to hit deer or elk lungs that far.....in the right conditions.

 

[jonnyviceroy]

SML??

I'd use this in utah too. Will just forgo the 1x scope and stick with 1 system for both states so I am not tinkering.

I just don't know enough about ML. I figure am limited to what 150 yards? SO if I shoot a 3 inch group with a cheap ML or 1 inch group with expensive. It'll kill a deer either way

SML is not going to be legal in most western states including Utah just fyi. I went through the trouble of building a custom ML and hunted with scopes here in Utah, it made a big difference next to my buddies CVA’s back then. Now that we are open sights only I wouldn’t have spent that kind of money to be honest. I think with the handicap of the open sights most factory muzzys will do all that you need.

Just got done making a clamp so open sights could be compatible with my setup to make it legal in Colorado as well. And honestly the peep insert covers less than my buddies red dots at distance for here in Utah.

 

[ElDiablito]

@ElDiablito what do you think the realistic lethal range for a 50cal full bore projectile using black powder is? Disregard open sight aspect. No sabots or smokeless or <50cal. Maybe there is more meat on the bone than I give credit.

Yeah, you’re not giving muzzys enough credit. As Chris and Wrench write above, the lethal range of a heavy conical is WAY beyond the distance most guys are capable of taking ethical muzzy shots.

 

[ElDiablito]

Yeah, you’re not giving muzzys enough credit. As Chris and Wrench write above, the lethal range of a heavy conical is WAY beyond the distance most guys are capable of taking ethical muzzy shots.

My .504 White Odyssey shooting 100 gr of 777 with a 600 gr conical retains 836 ft-lb of energy at 500 yards. A guy could bump that up to 120-150 gr powder if he really wanted to. Thats punchy enough for me though in a 6 lb 5 oz rifle.

 

[Pheasanthnter1]

I like my Knight mountaineer. Its simple, feels good in the hand, and has more accuracy than I do with open sights. I tried the williams peep on it and it wasn't for me. Switched back to factory.

I vote for keeping it simple.

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