Evoke training vs MTN tough

[mad_angler]

I think it you already have good aerobic endurance but are weak anaerobically then go ahead and do MTN Tough. I'm the opposite so I'm doing Evoke. I'll get back to doing the things that make me look good naked after sheep season.

Have you done a full season with MTN tough? It sounds like it. I am very curious to hear your thoughts after this hunting season.

That is what I am really looking for...
1. Real folks who have done MTN tough as designed for a season or two.
2..Real folks who have done EVOKE as designed for a season or two.

In some sense, those are the only folks who can speak to the effectiveness of the two methodologies...

 

[ThunderJack49]

Have you done a full season with MTN tough? It sounds like it. I am very curious to hear your thoughts after this hunting season.

That is what I am really looking for...
1. Real folks who have done MTN tough as designed for a season or two.
2..Real folks who have done EVOKE as designed for a season or two.

In some sense, those are the only folks who can speak to the effectiveness of the two methodologies...

He is making solid points.
One puts an emphasis on your general strength and muscular endurance and the other places a higher priority on your aerobic capacity. Both train both, in some capacity.
I’ve read and followed both books and my wife has a lot of experience with mtn tough, so I’ve seen a lot of it by proxy.
Who you are matters though. My wife trained mtn tough 5x a week and then took 3rd overall female in an 18 mile trail race with 3k of elevation. In her mind it’s all because of the programming, in my opinion it’s a high level of base fitness combined with a natural ability to run and a ridiculous competitive nature that got her those results.
If I were to take the same approach to that race, I would crash and burn in embarrassing fashion.
Her and I are on different ends of the spectrum athletically. I’m fast twitch with a history of fast twitch sports and she’s slow twitch with a family history of great off the couch runners.
The reality is that if you aren’t regularly training at this moment, both will give you results. If you are a strong person by nature, it’s likely that you will benefit the most from your aerobic training.
If you come from an endurance background but putting 200lbs on your back sounds scary, you probably would benefit from doing more strength and muscular endurance.
Finally, after achieving a high base level of fitness in both, you can now try and balance and optimize for both for the rest of your life while managing your life and injuries and setbacks as your fitness and the seasons come and go.
At this point, you’ll have a solid enough understanding of what training works and what you need to self select and problem solve on your own.

 

[skipper907]

for me the two things i am looking at and think about having done MTN tough for going on my second yr. Mtn tough is very much crossfit'ish style of fitness. One thing I don't see / haven't seen with MTN tough is people using there training and winning any big endurance events. Evoke / uphill athlete is very much an endurance based fitness program and seem to have well known and high level reputation of that and there athletes being at the top of very high level endurance events.
I the past I have added in the evoke supplement plyo work with ruck training and felt I had better improvements when in the field.
Going forward I am going to stick with the evoke plan as best I can (6days wk & the hrs is a challenge) and do strength training in the off season.
Funny thing is before this new evoke hunting plan came out I was thinking how to put something similar together for training

 

[satchamo]

I’m not trying to troll but the evoke training seems almost comical given the amount of time they expect someone to allot to training for hunting. I have 3 kids. I’m not doing 4+ hour hikes on weekends, that’s insane.

I can’t speak to anything else

 

[hibernation]

I’m not trying to troll but the evoke training seems almost comical given the amount of time they expect someone to allot to training for hunting. I have 3 kids. I’m not doing 4+ hour hikes on weekends, that’s insane.

I can’t speak to anything else

I hear that. I think it's worth noting, Evoke seems pretty focused on high-level competitive athletes and people who want to train like them. Their early work was focused on world class alpine climbers, then expanded to mountain ultra runners, then expanded to special forces, and now includes "mountain hunters" since the demands are all pretty similar.

I wish they made a more "maintenance" type program with a more modest time commitment. Less oriented towards peaking for a specific event. I'll go out for a week in August for bear, week or two in September for elk, odd trips for deer later on, and scattered trips into the mountains over the rest of the year. That's hard to match up with the periodization, peaking, and weekly commitment. Different scenario for someone who's got a once-in-a-lifetime trip planned and wants to go all-in on the prep.

 

[mtwarden]

I’ll go out on a limb and bet they would develop a plan for a person’s individual needs.

 

[ThunderJack49]

I hear that. I think it's worth noting, Evoke seems pretty focused on high-level competitive athletes and people who want to train like them. Their early work was focused on world class alpine climbers, then expanded to mountain ultra runners, then expanded to special forces, and now includes "mountain hunters" since the demands are all pretty similar.

I wish they made a more "maintenance" type program with a more modest time commitment. Less oriented towards peaking for a specific event. I'll go out for a week in August for bear, week or two in September for elk, odd trips for deer later on, and scattered trips into the mountains over the rest of the year. That's hard to match up with the periodization, peaking, and weekly commitment. Different scenario for someone who's got a once-in-a-lifetime trip planned and wants to go all-in on the prep.

20-30 minutes of aerobic training 4 times a week is their “minimum effective dose” they mention on Reddit. I’m of the opinion that most people do 2-3 hours of aerobic training a week would probably feel great in the mountains.

 

[pattimusprime22]

I’m not trying to troll but the evoke training seems almost comical given the amount of time they expect someone to allot to training for hunting. I have 3 kids. I’m not doing 4+ hour hikes on weekends, that’s insane.

I can’t speak to anything else

I'll just echo @hibernation and say the training time is not too high compared to the professional endurance athletes they are used to training. Hell, if you look at pro cyclists, they are getting in the neighborhood of 30 hours per week.

It's probably safe to say if the training program is way too much volume for you, you can just scale all the aerobic workouts down by 25% in duration, as long as the shorter workouts aren't getting shorter than 30 mins.

 

[Poser]

I’m not trying to troll but the evoke training seems almost comical given the amount of time they expect someone to allot to training for hunting. I have 3 kids. I’m not doing 4+ hour hikes on weekends, that’s insane.

I can’t speak to anything else

I think at least some of this is self limiting mindset. It may be certainly be the case that getting out for training hike is logistically more difficult for you than me from an access standpoint, so there’s that, but if you’re willing to get up early enough and spend a good bit of that training time with your headlamp on, you’d be surprised what you can get in and be back home early enough that they kids may not even be up yet. Or split those 4 hours into two 2 hour sessions, or trim it back to three hours. I know parents who are competitive endurance athletes who get their training volume in with young kids and while pregnant. I once encountered 3 new moms with 3 babies in swarmis multiple miles back in from the closest trailhead while it was snowing. There’s a women’s running group in town who are done with their running meetup by 6 am so they can get home and deal with the kids and There’s a dad’s HIIT group that meets at 5:00 am outside.

Again, I realize there is generally a different mindset around this kind of stuff in the West vs. the Midwest, but that’s also the point: it’s largely mindset driven. And, it may also certainly be easier if a training culture already exists, but maybe you have create that.

It’s your hunting season so do you, but while 4 hours is difficult to get in on the weekends for many people, I don’t think its “ comical” or “insane”

 

[jack88]

Ive been doing mountain tough for 4 years. It completely misses the mark for a mountain hunter. It was great for lifting up a heavy pack, super strong but like everyone else has said, the zone 2 fitness reservoir is way too small. I would struggle the first couple days until my body would figure out " oh is this what we want to do now, lots of miles at a slower pace."
Preseason prep is just crushing with not enough recovery time for that much zone 4/5 work. I think you need to have a huge zone 2 base before you get the benefits of a mountain tough type program, but it skips that.

 

[Marbles]

Im a flat lander from sea level and I tried to do MTN tough but the work outs were just insanely demanding, and hard to pull off at a moderately equipped busy gym. They were most certainly CrossFit/HIIT focused. Ended up canceling it and getting an actual CrossFit membership for a year.

This doesn't get mentioned enough, but so many of those workouts are circuit-based and require you to tie up multiple pieces of equipment at once. That just isn't practical for most people.

I was going to try MTN Tough a few years back, however the first workout in the "No gear" one asked me to use equipment I didn't have access too.

I hear that. I think it's worth noting, Evoke seems pretty focused on high-level competitive athletes and people who want to train like them. Their early work was focused on world class alpine climbers, then expanded to mountain ultra runners, then expanded to special forces, and now includes "mountain hunters" since the demands are all pretty similar.

I wish they made a more "maintenance" type program with a more modest time commitment. Less oriented towards peaking for a specific event. I'll go out for a week in August for bear, week or two in September for elk, odd trips for deer later on, and scattered trips into the mountains over the rest of the year. That's hard to match up with the periodization, peaking, and weekly commitment. Different scenario for someone who's got a once-in-a-lifetime trip planned and wants to go all-in on the prep.

You are asking for what a custom plan or coaching gives. Making a one size fits all plan is not possible, Evoke does their best, but you have to put in the work to understand the principles and adjust to your needs.

but if you’re willing to get up early enough and spend a good bit of that training time with your headlamp on, you’d be surprised what you can get in and be back home early enough that they kids may not even be up yet.

This depends, stack up enough low sleep days and over training becomes an issue. I can get up at 0330 and training every work day for 1-1.5 hours for a few weeks, but then there is a cost in systemic fatigue. I don't really have a solution, just pointing out a reality.

Unfortunately there is no shortcut to putting in the time. Anyone who doesn't have the time to do the work must accept a lower level of performance. It comes down to picking priorities.

 

[Braaap]

Intensity is not a substitute for duration (from the Scott Johnston books). This is where mtn tough and CrossFit (which are basically the same in my eyes) fall short. There is no shortcut or hack for aerobic fitness. It takes a good amount of time to be good and a huge amount to be elite. Any program that’s says otherwise is being dishonest.

 

[sivart]

The whole point of this is to know what scientifically the most optimal way to train for your hunt, and then train as close to that as your schedule will allow.

I think Evoke is way more science based when it comes to training for mountain hunts. But I still love to strength train, so I will always incorporate that.

I will say since I have been training more Evoke style, I feel better climbing mountains.

 

[hibernation]

You are asking for what a custom plan or coaching gives. Making a one size fits all plan is not possible, Evoke does their best, but you have to put in the work to understand the principles and adjust to your needs.

Totally, I'm just grousing. I have their books and use their general methodology as best I can, at least for the majority of the aerobic work. Lots of zone 2 trail running / hiking with a basic PPL strength routine seems to work pretty well. More rucking and muscular endurance work over the summer as season gets closer.

 

[P Carter]

I think at least some of this is self limiting mindset. It may be certainly be the case that getting out for training hike is logistically more difficult for you than me from an access standpoint, so there’s that, but if you’re willing to get up early enough and spend a good bit of that training time with your headlamp on, you’d be surprised what you can get in and be back home early enough that they kids may not even be up yet. Or split those 4 hours into two 2 hour sessions, or trim it back to three hours. I know parents who are competitive endurance athletes who get their training volume in with young kids and while pregnant. I once encountered 3 new moms with 3 babies in swarmis multiple miles back in from the closest trailhead while it was snowing. There’s a women’s running group in town who are done with their running meetup by 6 am so they can get home and deal with the kids and There’s a dad’s HIIT group that meets at 5:00 am outside.

Again, I realize there is generally a different mindset around this kind of stuff in the West vs. the Midwest, but that’s also the point: it’s largely mindset driven. And, it may also certainly be easier if a training culture already exists, but maybe you have create that.

It’s your hunting season so do you, but while 4 hours is difficult to get in on the weekends for many people, I don’t think its “ comical” or “insane”

^I think this is right.

It's possible. It's not easy, it's not pretty, no one's going to do it for you, and no one's going to blame you if you make different choices, but it is possible to find 8-10 hours a week to train, even with kids and a career.

 

[WhoGarrDen]

^I think this is right.

It's possible. It's not easy, it's not pretty, no one's going to do it for you, and no one's going to blame you if you make different choices, but it is possible to find 8-10 hours a week to train, even with kids and a career.

I started on my wife's 4mph-max walk pad by stacking 2x6's under it to achieve 15% incline. I did not like the idea of driving 10min each way to the gym + hours there and feeling like I'm neglecting home life - I knew I would quit the program when it ramped up. The treadmill is set up right behind the couch facing the TV and my wife's reading chair. Now I can "hike", hold conversations with my wife and son, and even watch some TV programs or movies with them. I will go to the gym for the ME workouts for the weight, but those are shorter days it seems.

 

[Patriot2]

I signed up for the 20 week Evoke Endurance Backcountry Hunter plan. Only on the second week. Never used a canned workout before but last year my legs just suffered in the mountains so I wanted to try SOMETHING! I will let you know after September if it made a difference! It could be that I am now 64 years old and the mountains are always going to win going forward....................

 

[Customweld]

I'm doing MTN Tough MGD's and have been for a while. On the weekends, I do a 4 mile weighted vest walk. I like the fast paced workout, but really don't know if it's helped me in the hills.

 

[Bubba]

I thought I would chime in and share my experiences with programs and what's I think is best for the mountains. In my late 30's I became inspired by Cam Hanes and wanted to take hunting to another level.The quote that hit me was "Train hard hunt Easy" I joined a gym and started working out and always hit the upper body and neglected the legs. I ran on the treadmill for 20 minutes at most. My diet suffered. I was improving but pretty much staying quo. I heard about CrossFit and so I went to a local gym. Didn't know much about it but thought what the heck, let's try it. I'm very competitive and I fell in love with it.

Crossfit became my addiction. I loved the community and the group workouts. I became more aware of nutrition and more aware of how my body works. I was working out with younger guys which made it fun to push myself against these young guys. This is where I really started to feel the quote "train hard hunt easy". I was recovering faster in the mountains than before. When hikingI was taking shorter breaks. This was also bleeding over into my job as a firefighter. As I hit mid 40's my mind was still young but my body was changing. I ended up herniating my L5-S1 at work training. I had to cut back on working out and that's when I fell into depression. After 10 months of being off I was now doing more strength training a physical therapy than CrossFit.At this point it was time to get back into CrossFit. I started out going full throttle. My body couldn't do It anymore at the level I was prior. I was frustrated. The mental toughness you get from CrossFit, I think is one of the most important things you develop with this style of working outs. Being able to push your body far beyond the mind wanting to quit. I lost it... and it is the hardest to gain back. Crossfit makes you push your limits and how this translates in the mountains is important not only for your own well being but for the animals you harvest. Packing game on your back in the elements and terrain. A lot of people never really think about mental toughness. It's a big part of back county hunting. We all owe it to the animal that we kill to get it out of the mountains and processed.

Im a huge believer in CrossFit and cross training. I think having a mix of CrossFit, strength and endurance will help in the mountains. There are a lot of programs out there these days. I have tried MTN Tough and I didn't like the programing. I want an app that can keep all my times and weights. Im trying ELK fit for my CrossFit workouts and use another app for strength training. On my strength days I also run a mile or 2 that keeps me in zone 2 or 3. I try and do 2 days of CrossFit a week with 3 days of strength. My recovery days I put a pack on with 40 pounds and walk on a treadmill. This is working for me now but im not in the shape I use to be in, when I was doing CrossFit all the time. Now that Im 50 years young my body needs more recovery now. My advise for someone trying to find a program best for the mountains is to explore CrossFit style workouts that have strength training incorporated in it. Rest days build your endurance with running and rucking. I also am starting to look into tactical training. GBRS program is one im looking into right now. They have a good baseline with metrics to see where you are at. But remember nutrition is a big component to making a programs work to its fullest potential. I wrote this up to help other in the endeavors to getting more fit for the mountains. Happy Hunting.

 

[The_Jim]

I’m not trying to troll but the evoke training seems almost comical given the amount of time they expect someone to allot to training for hunting. I have 3 kids. I’m not doing 4+ hour hikes on weekends, that’s insane.

I can’t speak to anything else

I wouldn't call it comical but I get it. You could take their template and reduce the volume to what fits you and you'll still see progress. It will just take longer. I personally don't do 4 hour training hikes and have no problem getting around the mountains when I go backpacking and hunting.