Europe stocking up on ammo

[Hnthrdr]

Afghanistan was worth it but then we stayed
you take the win and go home.
iraq was a win as well but then we stayed
you take the win and go home.
I worked with Iraq vets who said the Iraqi people were glad we got rid of saddam but then immediately asked when do you leave?
funding Ukraine is better than us-nato going in and staying.
there is no appeasing Putin the same as appeasement didn’t stop hitler.

Iraq was worth it?! Haha why again were we in Iraq at all? Yes all the winning in AFG was done in the first 6 months, zero reasons to nation build! Also Putin being hitler is a pretty far stretch. If we didn’t intervene, a whole lot less Ukrainians would be dead, and this thing would be over, I mean crimea went that way in 2014 why is it paramount to stop him now?

 

[MattB]

That is a wild stretch. Putin has been in power a total of 20 years, most of which were pretty quiet in terms of international conflict. Even the last couple years are nothing in comparison. It's a shame that so many in the media and positions of power speak with no care or understanding of the magnitude and toll of a global conflict.

Not really, there was Georgia in 2008 and Crimea (Ukraine) in 2014, both of which were examples of Putin's believed strategy of trying to reincorporate countries that were previously part of the USSR into Russia or its sphere of influence. The weak international response to Russia taking Crimea in 2014 undoubtedly emboldened Putin to pursue the current war in Ukraine.

That doesn't include Russia's activities in Syria or in Africa through Wagner.

 

[Hnthrdr]

Folks have very little awareness when it comes to global politics and conflicts it seems. My bosses in laws are eastern Ukrainian, but ethically Russian, they speak it and are Russian orthodox this would be akin to if the Baja of Mexico was predominantly American English speakers and the U.S. decided it was going to annex it… Putin has zero goals for global domination, regional probably, just like we do, just like the Chinese do, maybe it’s not our place to delve into business in Europe and Asia. The Americas though… hell I wish we would have taken over Canada a long time ago haha

 

[IdahoBeav]

Not really, there was Georgia in 2008 and Crimea (Ukraine) in 2014, both of which were examples of Putin's believed strategy of trying to reincorporate countries that were previously part of the USSR into Russia or its sphere of influence. The weak international response to Russia taking Crimea in 2014 undoubtedly emboldened Putin to pursue the current war in Ukraine.

That doesn't include Russia's activities in Syria or in Africa through Wagner.

That is still "pretty quiet" at the scale we are discussing. It's not like he's invading and conquering multiple nations over a course of months in an effort to build Lebensraum and genocide entire ethnicities of people. There was an 8-year period of inactivity in Ukraine. It's absurd to think it impossible to work out a peaceful solution with Putin.

As for Syria and Africa, the US also meddled there. We have no logic to speak on it.

 

[5MilesBack]

funding Ukraine is better than us-nato going in and staying.

Why do you see that as an either/or? How about neither.

 

[MattB]

That is still "pretty quiet" at the scale we are discussing. It's not like he's invading and conquering multiple nations over a course of months in an effort to build Lebensraum and genocide entire ethnicities of people. There was an 8-year period of inactivity in Ukraine. It's absurd to think it impossible to work out a peaceful solution with Putin.

Ukraine has been engaged in fighting with Russian-backed separatists in the Donbas from 2014 up to the 2022 invasion, so not really sure what "inactivity" you are referring to.

 

[IdahoBeav]

Ukraine has been engaged in fighting with Russian-backed separatists in the Donbas from 2014 up to the 2022 invasion, so not really sure what "inactivity" you are referring to.

The one where the Russia wasn't invading a sovereign nation.

If we're going to consider support of external national military, paramilitary, or other fighting force as direct involvement in a war, then we as Americans certainly have no good reason to point fingers.

 

[t_carlson]

Afghanistan was worth it but then we stayed
you take the win and go home.
iraq was a win as well but then we stayed
you take the win and go home.
I worked with Iraq vets who said the Iraqi people were glad we got rid of saddam but then immediately asked when do you leave?
funding Ukraine is better than us-nato going in and staying.
there is no appeasing Putin the same as appeasement didn’t stop hitler.

I think with a little patience, we could have waited and raided Bin Laden just like we ended up doing - with a lot less blood spilled for everyone involved.

Iraq was based on a lie, plain and simple. Never should have been there, even if we did initially "win." On the whole, the mideast was more stable with Saddam, period.

Ukraine is not our war. I don't buy the whole "he'll invade a NATO country if we don't" argument, mostly because Putin could invade any number of NATO countries tomorrow but won't. Because he doesn't want a war with NATO. The best argument you could make is that Ukraine should have struck a peace deal after their first successful counter-offensive.

But to continue throwing Ukrainian lives into hell because of some hypothetical war with Russia and NATO is crying wolf, in a big way. Putin is not Hitler. He's not a good person, but I firmly believe that he is NOT seeking to take over Europe and start WWIII.

 

[49ereric]

That is a wild stretch. Putin has been in power a total of 20 years, most of which were pretty quiet in terms of international conflict. Even the last couple years are nothing in comparison. It's a shame that so many in the media and positions of power speak with no care or understanding of the magnitude and toll of a global conflict.

The comparison is invading sovereign a nation.

 

[IdahoBeav]

The comparison is invading sovereign a nation.

Which isn't enough to make a valid comparison.

 

[49ereric]

Iraq was worth it?! Haha why again were we in Iraq at all? Yes all the winning in AFG was done in the first 6 months, zero reasons to nation build! Also Putin being hitler is a pretty far stretch.

removing saddam was worth it to the Iraqi people.
my post was not about the bogus reason for the invasion.
My point is leave after the win.
Putin invaded a sovereign nation that is the comparison with hitler and Putin wasn’t satisfied with crimea so appeasement failed.

 

[realunlucky]

removing saddam was worth it to the Iraqi people.
my post was not about the bogus reason for the invasion.
My point is leave after the win.
Putin invaded a sovereign nation that is the comparison with hitler and Putin wasn’t satisfied with crimea so appeasement failed.

I'd say your speaking out of turn if you think that is thier opinion. Less stability now then ever quality of life did increase for limited groups of people. By and large lots of continuous suffering for no long term gain.

There was nothing to win just people to kill.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

 

[Hnthrdr]

removing saddam was worth it to the Iraqi people.
my post was not about the bogus reason for the invasion.
My point is leave after the win.
Putin invaded a sovereign nation that is the comparison with hitler and Putin wasn’t satisfied with crimea so appeasement failed.

For some iraqs yes for many probably not better off. I know he was a brutal dictator, but he provided a level of stability for his nation, same as Momar… you can just topple dictators and ride off into the sunset, it leaves a power vacuum and what fills it is often far worse, we know we can’t nation build either, so best bet is to stay the F out! If we focused on economic might and strength and manufacturing at home. We would be so much better off and sticking our military where it doesn’t belong…

 

[49ereric]

Which isn't enough to make a valid comparison.

The Baltic states think so as well as Poland none of which want a land grab war on their borders.
everything is about perspective and the isolationist-appeasement perspective is flawed.

 

[IdahoBeav]

The Baltic states think so as well as Poland none of which want a land grab war on their borders.
everything is about perspective and the isolationist-appeasement perspective is flawed.

Then they aren't thinking straight. There is no legitimate comparison to Hitler. Hitler is only mentioned in effort to appeal to emotion and perhaps persuade from an appropriate to an excessive reaction.

As for the isolationist/appeasement/non-intervention approach not working, Spain was able to avoid two world wars in which the hotbed was right next door. Now, politically, it certainly may be impossible for the US to keep from being involved in conflict, but that is only because of the military industrial complex and the ridiculous (but popular) idea that the US needs to police the world.

 

[t_carlson]

removing saddam was worth it to the Iraqi people.
my post was not about the bogus reason for the invasion.
My point is leave after the win.
Putin invaded a sovereign nation that is the comparison with hitler and Putin wasn’t satisfied with crimea so appeasement failed.

What about the 200,000 dead Iraqi civilians?

And their families?

"Worth it" to them???

Invading just to topple 3rd world dictators and then leaving only leaves a giant wake of blood and destruction. Power vacuums in such situations NEVER turn out better for the populace. The final result is simply trading one brutal regime for another with a lot of turbulence during the transition.

 

[G7777777]

The last few weeks we’ve heard Berger Bullets say their head company (who has a lot of defense contracts in Europe) anticipates component shortages of their brass, bullets and powder in the US to last “A very long time”.

Now, news of a leaked document from Russia is out that might account for some of the anticipated demand. It’s probably nothing, but interesting nonetheless. Joe Bloggs isn’t usually a conspiracy nut, mostly an economist, so I found it surprising.

We heard sounds like a rumor … please name the source so everyone isn’t running out and hoarding because of unconfirmed timors

 

[MattB]

What I take from this is that, so long as Putin doesn’t seek to undermine the sovereignty of a NATO nation, all is fine. I don’t agree.

 

[MattB]

The one where the Russia wasn't invading a sovereign nation.

You realize that when Russia took Crimea it had invaded and taken a portion of a sovereign nation? And that supporting the separatists to make further gains in Ukraine is an extension of that? It seems intentionally naive to claim otherwise.

 

[Mojave]

You can either be Switzerland and neutral and tell everyone you are armed to the teeth, but I think Switzerland is a paper dragon. I don't think they have the actual ability to defend themselves against a semi-superpower. Like Poland or Germany. But they would give it hell.

I spent 20 years in the military, and another 10 as a DOD civil servant. I don't know anything, but I have some ideas.

We have our faults as a military. Every nation does, but our faults pale in comparison with an enemy like Russia, China, the "Caliphate" or Venezuala.

For the Russia example: they are stuck in an extremist regime. Within Russia they have freedom of pretty much everything except speech and travel. They can also be conscripted at any moment. Of course their military is hampered by the fact that they have no funding, no supply system, extreme corruption, no esprit de corps, and bad leadership. The Russian people can't seem to make their government work for them. It works for itself (sound familiar?). Hard core Russian "party members" believe they are doing the right thing. I had an incident with one when I was at the US Embassy in Australia. This was at a diplomatic fishing event. Was my first experience with the spy versus spy type issue. I wasn't a spy, but it was the same BS. Had another issue a few months later with an Israeli diplomat. Was not something I anticipated I would have to deal with, but that was stupidity on my part.

Venezuala is very similar to Russia.

China, also has a dictator, corruption, and limited freedom and the difference is that the people of China have lived in extreme poverty for longer, but believe their leader to be a kind of demi-god. Especially serious party members (sounds very similar to the Democratic Party in America). Would the Chinese people fight to the same extent that the Japanese did during WW2?

I am going to lump Islamic states into the theme of the Caliphate. There are places like Jordan, Bahrain and the UAE that have serious political and economic ties to the West. They are not really what I am talking about. I am talking about places that are very difficult politically; Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Somalia, are kind of the big ones. Leadership is vague, even more limited freedom, but many people are tied to the idea of a Nationalist Islamic front with extreme tribalism. In this case the Tribalism is more important than the Nationalism.

Leaving Afghanistan left a vacuum for the previously known as "bad guys" to take power again.