Equipment versus practice posts and Rifle practice/shooting

[mxgsfmdpx]

This is how I shoot static offhand-

View attachment 633013


This isn’t a picture perfect example. This is a screen shot of a video while doing the hunting rifle drill.

Genuinely curious how proficient you, or whomever this is, can be with that stance? I've moved several shooters (mainly ex military) away from pretty much this exact stance, and they've greatly improved their off hand shooting.

Just last week a hunter I was with here in AZ missed a mule deer buck at 120 yards with this stance. We worked on building a better position and he sent me a photo this week of him hitting 7/10 shots on an 8" target at 100 yards. Likely some "buck fever" could have been at play, also a shot at the end of a long day hiking/hunting versus fully rested and comfortable with no time constraint and pressure.

I've seen some shooters who practice a lot, and use this stance, kill animals inside of 150 yards. In person, I've never actually seen anyone actually kill past 150 yards until they modify their off hand position away from this one.

What are some pointers/techniques for guys and gals who don't want to move away from this standard position and be proficient?

 

[DangerRanger]

This is me from the drill

Disclaimer I kinda suck

 

[Marshfly]

Is my 6'2" and only 180 lbs showing again? 40 year old Dad strength would surprise you I'd bet though, haha. Next time I'll wear a shirt that's a size too small instead of size too big just for you ;-)

Just remarking on Form’s gun show. Lol.

I shoot off hand very similar to the way you do as well btw. More body contact just makes me more steady.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

The first example by @mxgsfmdpx, while not looking as manly as the others.. is actually relying on the skeletal structure from the body as support, rather than strength to steady the weapon. I’m sure Form is very proficient with that stance, but will fatigue sooner, for what that is worth.

 

[hereinaz]

There are different ways to skin a cat. It can depend upon the cat, or it can depend upon the tools you’ve got.

There’s a lot to be said for the supported position. Put your elbow on your hip and build support that way. It clearly works. Olympic shooters use it. But, hunters don’t have rifles set up like them and don’t wear the jackets.

I think it does work for hunters, especially those who practice less and have lower strength, a heavier, gun, or other variables.

On the other hand, the grip and stance Form showed works. It operates on a completely different muscular control of the rifle.

The problem I frequently see is that shooters don’t see the actual muscles and bones involved in the way Form is trapping the rifle and controlling it. He isn’t holding it up from the bottom, he is pulling it into his shoulder. His hand is more on the side and thumb on top for a reason. His wrist, elbow and shoulder are in strong positions that don’t tire as fast as the other.

I was playing with that stance this weekend, and showed two women, a teenager and an 18-year-old how to reach forward, push their hand forward snd elbow out, and then feel the mechanics of it.

It was with my AR with steel suppressor, which weighs more than my long range rifle. They all had better control.

That position provides more positive control over the rifle. One of the keys is the position of the arm so that the shoulder doesn’t hold your arm and gun up.

Look how Form has his upper arm nearing horizontal and his wrist is in a position to pull the rifle into his shoulder rather than holding it up. His elbow is out and not under.

If you roll your elbow under the rifle your shoulder has to hold the rifle up. But, if you roll the elbow up, you pull the rifle to you.

It creates a strong triangle with the strongest muscles of the arm and isolates the shoulder out of the equation.

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

There are different ways to skin a cat. It can depend upon the cat, or it can depend upon the tools you’ve got.

There’s a lot to be said for the supported position. Put your elbow on your hip and build support that way. It clearly works. Olympic shooters use it. But, hunters don’t have rifles set up like them and don’t wear the jackets.

I think it does work for hunters, especially those who practice less and have lower strength, a heavier, gun, or other variables.

On the other hand, the grip and stance Form showed works. It operates on a completely different muscular control of the rifle.

The problem I frequently see is that shooters don’t see the actual muscles and bones involved in the way Form is trapping the rifle and controlling it. He isn’t holding it up from the bottom, he is pulling it into his shoulder. His hand is more on the side and thumb on top for a reason. His wrist, elbow and shoulder are in strong positions that don’t tire as fast as the other.

I was playing with that stance this weekend, and showed two women, a teenager and an 18-year-old how to reach forward, push their hand forward snd elbow out, and then feel the mechanics of it.

It was with my AR with steel suppressor, which weighs more than my long range rifle. They all had better control.

That position provides more positive control over the rifle. One of the keys is the position of the arm so that the shoulder doesn’t hold your arm and gun up.

Look how Form has his upper arm nearing horizontal and his wrist is in a position to pull the rifle into his shoulder rather than holding it up. His elbow is out and not under.

If you roll your elbow under the rifle your shoulder has to hold the rifle up. But, if you roll the elbow up, you pull the rifle to you.

It creates a strong triangle with the strongest muscles of the arm and isolates the shoulder out of the equation.

Nice breakdown and explanation. Makes a lot of sense.

 

[Moose83]

@mxgsfmdpx, @Formidilosus . Thank you gentlemen for the pics. It is much appreciated. I am going to be loading up a bunch of practice ammo in the next little while, and I shall be experimenting with both positions as they are a bit different than I had pictured In my mind.

 

[hereinaz]

The first example by @mxgsfmdpx, while not looking as manly as the others.. is actually relying on the skeletal structure from the body as support, rather than strength to steady the weapon. I’m sure Form is very proficient with that stance, but will fatigue sooner, for what that is worth.

Ya know, I am not so sure about that… I think there are enough variables to make it depend. Though there is support by the skeleton, it still requires the shoulder muscles to engage in a way that the other position doesn’t.

I know recovery is much faster for me using the Form style. I am a soft 51yr old pudgy guy. I wish I was still a lean 190 6’2”…

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

The first example by @mxgsfmdpx, while not looking as manly as the others.. is actually relying on the skeletal structure from the body as support, rather than strength to steady the weapon. I’m sure Form is very proficient with that stance, but will fatigue sooner, for what that is worth.

I don’t know man with those guns I think I’m going to petition to officially change his name to FormidiSWOLEsus. He may not ever fatigue.

 

[Formidilosus]

Genuinely curious how proficient you, or whomever this is, can be with that stance?

Untimed I am around 95% inside 8 moa. When practiced, around 6 MOA. With the classical off hand similar to what you showed, about 1 MOA less.

The main thing here is that standing, offhand with no support is an emergency position past about 50 yards. By the time someone gets into a perfect offhand stance, they could have just shot off the top of a hiking stick.

The classical offhand is really a contrived position for a competition. It certainly has a bit less wobble zone than other techniques, yet gives up all recoil control, ability to spot the shot, rapid follow shots, and tracking game after it moves- it is a static target technique. That doesn’t mean I don’t think it’s useful, it is. Just isn’t a technique driven by killing things.

An example of a stance/grip/technique that came from quick, often moving game, that requires rapid shooting and follow up shots is Franz Albrecht’s driven boar shooting; which shares a lot of similarities to common 3-gun technique, and shotgun techniques.


For me and those I am around, we shoot 20,000 plus shots a year from a certain stance/grip at very high speeds, often while the target is moving. It doesn’t make sense to have two separate techniques in use as a general thing. Even if I wanted to use the classical stance more, it is too slow the vast majority of the time I require a standing shot.

I've moved several shooters (mainly ex military) away from pretty much this exact stance, and they've greatly improved their off hand shooting.

Well… the military isn’t exactly the bastion of shooting skill as I am sure you know.

I've seen some shooters who practice a lot, and use this stance, kill animals inside of 150 yards. In person, I've never actually seen anyone actually kill past 150 yards until they modify their off hand position away from this one.

I am not taking a 150 yard unsupported offhand shot. Well, that’s a last ditch thing and won’t be a first shot deal. One of my homies CNS’sed a wounded elk last season at 160’ish yards running full bore away from him as we approached it using the same technique he uses for everything else.

What are some pointers/techniques for guys and gals who don't want to move away from this standard position and be proficient?

Are you asking about that 3-gun’ish stance?

 

[Dobermann]

This is how I shoot static offhand-

View attachment 633013


This isn’t a picture perfect example. This is a screen shot of a video while doing the hunting rifle drill.

A HNT26? Reflections?

 

[Anschutz]

There’s a lot to be said for the supported position. Put your elbow on your hip and build support that way. It clearly works. Olympic shooters use it. But, hunters don’t have rifles set up like them and don’t wear the jackets.

Even without the coat and adjustable rifle, you can build a pretty good position. In college, our first week or so of practice was without a coat to find our positions again without relying on the gear. I will say, though, that every big game animal I've taken offhand has been from a position more like Forms. It's much easier to track moving games, and it's the position my rifle comes up in for a snap shot. If you look at old videos from when running target was an Olympic discipline, their position is similar.

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

 

[hereinaz]

Even without the coat and adjustable rifle, you can build a pretty good position. In college, our first week or so of practice was without a coat to find our positions again without relying on the gear. I will say, though, that every big game animal I've taken offhand has been from a position more like Forms. It's much easier to track moving games, and it's the position my rifle comes up in for a snap shot. If you look at old videos from when running target was an Olympic discipline, their position is similar.

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

Good info. You have some good experience. Made me think of why I like the muscle position better and the strength/weakness of the positions. Both work, but it depends on the cat and the tools.

Having practiced both, I agree that absolute most stable position was a good skeletal one for me. There is no perfect position, only tradeoffs.

The problem I found was that the skeletal support system has a very limited natural point of aim. If my feet are not well oriented to the target, the wobble gets so much more as I try to muscle the rifle. If I want to shoot the smallest standing group, I get my feet planted and then shoot one shot at a time to reduce fatigue.

To get the rifle to settle to the least wobble, I had to make lots of micro adjustments. That just takes longer.

The muscle system rolling the elbow up and out with the hand more gripping the side rather than the bottom has a much larger NPA. I could get into a suitable wobble much faster and more reliably.

Makes sense why you would shoot game with that position and it was the style for moving game when it was s competitive thing.

We went shooting and after a little instruction this shooter could move across the plate rack quickly with far more precision than she could before. The plate rack is pretty close, but we hadn’t shot a lot of ammo and this was her first run at the little game.

With practice a shooter can snap to a shot much faster and intuitively aim for a fast shot. If you point your thumb with the barrel, you can acquire targets faster pointing your thumb at the target with both eyes open.

As a practical pure offhand shot, I think it is more effective for hunting overall if one has the muscles to match the rifle. Kids and women should be shooting lighter shorter rifles. I think many more are shooting inappropriately sized rifles than needed. That’s a reason for @PNWGATOR .223.

 

[Formidilosus]

A HNT26? Reflections?

No, that’s the MDT Field Stock and it has several major issues.

 

[Brontosaurus]

This thread coming back up reminded me that I needed to get off my belly and get some real practice in.... Ugh getting humbled quick, that timer is a beast

Edit: more humble pie to eat. But just realized I forgot to start with my pack on each time. So take that score and knock off a couple more points.

 

[Alex Genereux]

Still just waiting for Tikka to import the lefty t3x in .223

 

[Spoonbill]

Still just waiting for Tikka to import the lefty t3x in .223

Eurooptic will occasionally have 223 ctr’s in stock.

 

[Alex Genereux]

Eurooptic will occasionally have 223 ctr’s in stock.

yeah trying to stick with the standard mags.

 

[SouthPaw]

yeah trying to stick with the standard mags.

Swap the CTR bottom metal with factory T3.

 

[Dobermann]

Still just waiting for Tikka to import the lefty t3x in .223

I think UM said on a recent podcast that they're going to become a Tikka stockist - if anyone would chase this up for you with Beretta, it would be them.