Elk Hunting Montana Outfitters

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

The elk they hunt never get a break, they don't winter in the Bob...if only obviously.

Those elk are subjected to all the things I listed, I don't care how far from the road they are when you hunted them for the week you were there.

The point is that as far away from the road as we were, we still didn't see S--- for animals and others on this thread have confirmed the same in adjacent areas to the Bob. The elk, and deer for that matter, may be more vulnerable to the things you cited during other times of the year when they're closer to the roads and easier to access, but even in Sep they were nowhere to be found.

If you're trying to say that a more than 56X increase in the number of wolves over the past 34 years has nothing to do with lower observed populations of deer and elk in the region, you're crazy.

 

[Ross]

However, if you're trying to say that a more than 56X increase in the number of wolves over the past 34 years has nothing to do with lower populations of deer and elk in the region, you're crazy.

Bingo

 

[strattonje2020]

They will have to poison the wolf populations down again. I’m surprised the poplulations aren’t worse considering you can have 6 pups for every female.

 

[BuzzH]

The point is that as far away from the road as we were, we still didn't see S--- for animals and others on this thread have confirmed the same in adjacent areas to the Bob. The elk, and deer for that matter, may be more vulnerable to the things you cited during other times of the year when they're closer to the roads and easier to access, but even in Sep they were nowhere to be found.

If you're trying to say that a more than 56X increase in the number of wolves over the past 34 years has nothing to do with lower observed populations of deer and elk in the region, you're crazy.

Not what I'm saying at all...the absolute dogchit elk populations in the Bob, and public land all across Montana, is being impacted by lots of things. Its additive and blaming one thing, when dozens of other impacts are equally or more detrimental to elk...that is living in denial and is being willfully ignorant.

I've hunted in and around the Bob my entire life...ask anyone how the elk, deer, etc. were doing prior to wolf reintroduction. They were tanking even then...go look at the aerial elk classifications for the last 30 years. You'll notice a trend...

 

[strattonje2020]

Not what I'm saying at all...the absolute dogchit elk populations in the Bob, and public land all across Montana, is being impacted by lots of things. Its additive and blaming one thing, when dozens of other impacts are equally or more detrimental to elk...that is living in denial and is being willfully ignorant.

I've hunted in and around the Bob my entire life...ask anyone how the elk, deer, etc. were doing prior to wolf reintroduction. They were tanking even then...go look at the aerial elk classifications for the last 30 years. You'll notice a trend...

I can see what your saying Buzz. I mean its just a matter of time until Wyoming to shit too. I haven't been but from what I've seen you'd have to try to not get an elk in the wilderness units of wyoming. Oregon has one of the largest elk populations and also some of the most strict seasons and draws. I'm sure it doesn't help that most Montana residents stand a strong chance at tagging out due to season length.

 

[BuzzH]

I can see what your saying Buzz. I mean its just a matter of time until Wyoming to shit too. I haven't been but from what I've seen you'd have to try to not get an elk in the wilderness units of wyoming. Oregon has one of the largest elk populations and also some of the most strict seasons and draws. I'm sure it doesn't help that most Montana residents stand a strong chance at tagging out due to season length.

Right, and even IF we removed every predator from Montana...and even IF we fixed all the other issues...still wouldn't matter.

Montana, BY LAW, is required to manage elk at, or below population objectives via the EMP and Barrett's elk slaughter bill.

People solely blaming predators for the woes of elk in Montana need to do a bit more research.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Not what I'm saying at all...the absolute dogchit elk populations in the Bob, and public land all across Montana, is being impacted by lots of things. Its additive and blaming one thing, when dozens of other impacts are equally or more detrimental to elk...that is living in denial and is being willfully ignorant.

I agree with you. I am simply telling you what I heard from guys who make their living off of the animals in the area. You cannot deny that wolf reintroduction has negatively impacted the animal populations. I don't deny that horseShit management practices have also added pressure to the populations.

Regarding your "...continuing to pound dwindling populations comment..." what are you suggesting? Ban hunting in the Bob for 1 or more years? Cut resident and NR tags?

If I had a magic wand, I'd start by implementing a mandatory harvest reporting system in MT similar to what we have in Iowa for whitetails and turkeys. At least then you have a way to objectively and somewhat accurately track harvest trends by county and unit. This data could then be used to set reasonable objectives. I was very surprised when I was issued a paper tag without any reporting requirements after harvesting such a massive and unreal animal.

And let me be clear, I 100% believe that appropriate apex predator populations are necessary to maintain healthy populations of game animals. However, these predators have to be effectively managed and in balance with elk and deer population targets. Yes, I know MT has very liberal wolf tags for residents, but how many guys are riding or hiking 20 miles into the Bob or other wilderness areas just to hunt or trap wolves?

 

[bsnedeker]

Guides always need an excuse.

Never mind the fact there's over 1 million people living in Montana now. Never mind the long range capable rifles their clients have now. Range finders, spotting scopes that you judge elk/deer with at 3-4 miles, high quality glass, trail cams, tons more outfitters all across the State.

Did they mention the 6 months of elk seasons now compared to 15 years ago? Issuing B-tags for a second elk in many areas? Did they mention the Elk Management Plan, or how the objective numbers were decided? How about Debby Barretts elk slaughter bill?

How about 11 weeks of general OTC opportunity in a vast majority of the State for the 130K plus Residents? What about the 17K NR elk tags? What about outfitters crying to the legislature and getting even more NR tags this year?

How about the severely reduced lion quota's in most all of NW Montana? Permit only for lions now, that come up?

Probably not would be my guess...

Its all the wolves fault.

There are no shoulder seasons in NW MT so the season is not "6 months long". There are virtually no B tags in all of NW MT. NW MT is not over objective for elk so I'm not sure what your point is on that. It is also not true that lion hunting is permit only...the archery seasons are on the general tag (quotas are ridiculously low, I'll grant you that).

Are there other problems than just predators in NW MT? Of course. Are predators the primary reason for the lack of elk in NW MT? Of course.

 

[BuzzH]

There are no shoulder seasons in NW MT so the season is not "6 months long". There are virtually no B tags in all of NW MT. NW MT is not over objective for elk so I'm not sure what your point is on that. It is also not true that lion hunting is permit only...the archery seasons are on the general tag (quotas are ridiculously low, I'll grant you that).

Are there other problems than just predators in NW MT? Of course. Are predators the primary reason for the lack of elk in NW MT? Of course.

I reckon your definition of virtually no B tags varies from mine or your running pretty tight with "NW Montana". Also don't forget youth hunting cows for 11 weeks as well (or more like dear old Dad "helping" to fill those youth tags). Don't pretend to tell me it doesn't happen all the time, I spent the first 30 years of my life around Seeley Lake, Superior, St. Regis, Stevensville, Darby, Libby, Thompson Falls, Plains, etc. I know what goes on...

I disagree that predators are the primary cause of crap elk populations in NW Montana, unless you lump in 11 weeks to 6 months of human predation into that Statement.

When did you move to Montana?

 

[strattonje2020]

This thread started out about outfitters. if anyone is reads this. I highly suggest you buy onx and rent a truck and just explore the country for 2 weeks for half the cost of 1 week outfitted hunt. unless your on a private ranch your odds with the outfitter isn't much better than diy.

 

[BuzzH]

I agree with you. I am simply telling you what I heard from guys who make their living off of the animals in the area. You cannot deny that wolf reintroduction has negatively impacted the animal populations. I don't deny that horseShit management practices have also added pressure to the populations.

Regarding your "...continuing to pound dwindling populations comment..." what are you suggesting? Ban hunting in the Bob for 1 or more years? Cut resident and NR tags?

If I had a magic wand, I'd start by implementing a mandatory harvest reporting system in MT similar to what we have in Iowa for whitetails and turkeys. At least then you have a way to objectively and somewhat accurately track harvest trends by county and unit. This data could then be used to set reasonable objectives. I was very surprised when I was issued a paper tag without any reporting requirements after harvesting such a massive and unreal animal.

And let me be clear, I 100% believe that appropriate apex predator populations are necessary to maintain healthy populations of game animals. However, these predators have to be effectively managed and in balance with elk and deer population targets. Yes, I know MT has very liberal wolf tags for residents, but how many guys are riding or hiking 20 miles into the Bob or other wilderness areas just to hunt or trap wolves?

Lots of ground you're covering, I'll answer your questions, they're fair.

First to address the hunting in the Bob. Can we agree that hunting via humans has ALWAYS been touted as a way to "control" ungulate populations? To keep the herds healthy and "in check"? I think that's a fair statement and one I agree with.

If we believe that, I'm just curious how anyone can justify that in a duration of the hunt you made, that 8 hunters seeing 2 elk, 12 deer, yada yada, there is a biological need to hunt that herd? Is there too many elk? Are we taking "surplus animals"? How are we "helping" that herd?

That said, I'm not chastising you at all for killing an elk there, in fact congratulations, looks to be a good bull. I assume you aren't a biologist and even if you are, not paid as one in Montana. If Montana FWP and its biologists seem to think its OK to pound on those elk with OTC general tags for 11 weeks, that's what you pay them for to decide. However, crap management is then the culprit for a hugeeee part of the problem if that is being allowed to happen.

The places I hunt in Montana (my family has hunted there since the 1940's), not far from where you shot your bull, I made the decision that there simply are not enough elk there to justify killing them. Much like the Bob, its been in decline for a long, long time. Sure, some of it predators (mostly lions where I hunt most), but wolves and both grizzlies and black bears too. But, there is also a tremendous amount of pressure put on them by hunters. Before you say it, YES, I shot elk there the last several years I hunted elk there. But, its not right, or even fair, that I take advantage of those elk...I know that country (arguably) better than any human alive. I know right where I can find the bulls that occupy that country and they use very small, specific areas. They also move to those places and a vast majority of the bulls from a large geographic area congregate there. I decided my impacts on that huge geographic area were no doubt detrimental to that herd of elk. Every time I shot one, I felt guilty, like I was shooting the last buffalo. I addressed these issues in a lengthy letter I sent the FWP Director, Governor Office, and area Biologist, along with a copy of my last elk tag, explaining exactly why I would no longer participate in hunting elk in Montana until they got serious about proper management.

That was my choice, and IMO, the only reasonable and responsible thing to do. I haven't bought another elk tag there even though I qualify for the Montana Native OTC elk tag which is half price (was $80 for a NR even after I quit buying them).

I've talked at length with the biologists there for 40 years, all of them. I've heard some alarming things, as in one biologist telling me that "well, when there's hardly any elk left, killing a few of what's left is no big deal". That area had 8 observed elk the last time it was flown....YES EIGHT elk. 11 weeks of hunting justified?

Here you go...any way to possible to justify 11 weeks of OTC hunting with numbers like this?

To: Neil Andersen From: Jessy Coltrane Date: 29 May 2018 RE: Elk survey in the South Fork Flathead, HDs 140 & 150 Species: Elk Pilot: Rob Cherot and Ken Gustus Total elk observed: 202 Area: HDs 140 & 150 Observer(s): Jessy Coltrane Calves per 100 cows: 8 Date(s): 20-22 May 2018 Flight time: 9 hours Bulls per 100 cows: 6 Aircraft: Cost (@$425.00/hr): $3825 On 20- May 2017, we counted and classified elk from a helicopter in the South Fork of the Flathead River within hunting districts 140 and 150, from Youngs Creek to Dry Parks (Table 1). On 20 May 2018, Rob Cherot was the pilot, and Perry Brown and I were the observers; whereas on the 21 – 22 May, Ken Justus was the pilot and I was the only observer. Low lying meadows were fully green and snowline was high. The south facing slopes, particularly in the 2015 burn areas were also showing signs of emergent vegetation. Youngs Creek was blackened from the 2017 burn with only a few small patches of green vegetation. That drainage was relatively devoid of forage for elk. Skies were clear, and the wind was calm and conditions were optimal for sighting elk. Surveys were conducted from 0600 to 0820. Unfortunately, this year we had a prolonged winter, with deep snows and late green-up. The helicopter was not available for surveys due to conflicts with other biologists and maintenance requirements, which made it impossible to conduct surveys earlier. Spring green-up conditions were past prime for surveying, and the timing of our survey was also approaching the beginning of calving; we observed several single female elk in heavily wooded areas separate from any herd. Therefore, it appears we missed optimal timing for surveys by over a week, and due to the poor timing of the survey, I would not use these numbers in any trend analysis. We observed a total of 202 elk, with a calf:cow ratio of 8 calves to 100 cows and a bull:cow ratio of 6 bulls to 100 cows (Table 1; Figures 1 and 2). Elk were observed primarily in meadows and along the main river channel, with the exception of a few single female elk (Figures 3 and 4). Small bands of bulls were observed higher on hillsides and in thick timber. Classifying elk during the spring is relatively difficult, especially discerning bulls from cows. In addition, bulls are in smaller groups in thicker timber, making sightability low in comparison to cow/calf groups. The observed calf:cow ratio is low but similar to last year’s ratio. Bull:cow ratio is lower than observed in previous years (Figure 2).

Agree with you on mandatory harvest reporting, 100%.

Also agree 100% with predator management, and yes there are guys killing their limit of wolves in that country...I personally know one that's filled every wolf tag available to him every year since hunting started. Last I heard he had shot 5 of his 10 this year...probably a couple more by now (he doesn't trap).

 

[bsnedeker]

I reckon your definition of virtually no B tags varies from mine or your running pretty tight with "NW Montana". Also don't forget youth hunting cows for 11 weeks as well (or more like dear old Dad "helping" to fill those youth tags). Don't pretend to tell me it doesn't happen all the time, I spent the first 30 years of my life around Seeley Lake, Superior, St. Regis, Stevensville, Darby, Libby, Thompson Falls, Plains, etc. I know what goes on...

I disagree that predators are the primary cause of crap elk populations in NW Montana, unless you lump in 11 weeks to 6 months of human predation into that Statement.

When did you move to Montana?

I was wrong when I said there are "virtually" no B-tags in region 1....there are LITERALLY zero. Absolutely no B tags of any kind in any unit in region 1. There are some LE permits that are for antlerless elk but that is entirely different...you can only take a maximum of one elk out of any unit in region 1, end of story. Go ahead and check the regs...it seems like you need a refresher on them regardless since you hunt up here so much!

My Dad lived here for 30 years of his life as well, he also doesn't know anything about hunting up here because he hasn't done it in 20. Living here for a long time at one point in your life doesn't make you an expert on what's going on now. You're lack of understanding of the regulations makes me doubt your knowledge personally, but that's just my opinion.

You can disagree with the primary causes for the lack of elk and have whatever opinions you want. I'll listen to the multiple biologists up here that I talk to every single year...they would strongly disagree with you. Wolves, bears, and cats are the primary driver.

 

[strattonje2020]

I was wrong when I said there are "virtually" no B-tags in region 1....there are LITERALLY zero. Absolutely no B tags of any kind in any unit in region 1. There are some LE permits that are for antlerless elk but that is entirely different...you can only take a maximum of one elk out of any unit in region 1, end of story. Go ahead and check the regs...it seems like you need a refresher on them regardless since you hunt up here so much!

My Dad lived here for 30 years of his life as well, he also doesn't know anything about hunting up here because he hasn't done it in 20. Living here for a long time at one point in your life doesn't make you an expert on what's going on now. You're lack of understanding of the regulations makes me doubt your knowledge personally, but that's just my opinion.

You can disagree with the primary causes for the lack of elk and have whatever opinions you want. I'll listen to the multiple biologists up here that I talk to every single year...they would strongly disagree with you. Wolves, bears, and cats are the primary driver.

@bsnedecker what do they say is the plan to reduce the predators? I'm generally interested. not being a smart ass.

 

[bsnedeker]

@bsnedecker what do they say is the plan to reduce the predators? I'm generally interested. not being a smart ass.

I mean, to call it a "plan" is generous, but they have done a couple things. They have doubled the number of wolf tags you can get so you can now take 20 wolves a year, they have legalized baiting and snares, and they allow night hunting. They have also legalized hound hunting for bears. That one probably won't help too much up here as I think you'd have to be kind of nuts to run dogs for wolves given the grizz density up here.

The should also dramatically increase the number of lions they allow people to take also. Based on what I saw this year regarding units being closed down earlier than ever before due to quotas being met I HOPE they will recognize that we need to take more lions, but this is FWP we are talking about so I won't get my hopes up.

 

[strattonje2020]

I mean, to call it a "plan" is generous, but they have done a couple things. They have doubled the number of wolf tags you can get so you can now take 20 wolves a year, they have legalized baiting and snares, and they allow night hunting. They have also legalized hound hunting for bears. That one probably won't help too much up here as I think you'd have to be kind of nuts to run dogs for wolves given the grizz density up here.

The should also dramatically increase the number of lions they allow people to take also. Based on what I saw this year regarding units being closed down earlier than ever before due to quotas being met I HOPE they will recognize that we need to take more lions, but this is FWP we are talking about so I won't get my hopes up.

that's better than nothing. I seen a mountain lion on deer horn mountain this year. first one I've ever seen in day light and not on camera. I have always wondered why they just don't let any license holder shoot a wolf. on the off chance you see one and don't have a tag. i would even donate towards a fund for bounties on furs to incentivize someone.

 

[bsnedeker]

i would even donate towards a fund for bounties on furs to incentivize someone.

OH, I forgot about that! They also paved the way this year for exactly that and legalized private organizations reimbursing individuals for their expenses related to wolf hunting and trapping. So far no organization has materialized to my knowledge, but I'd be willing to bet it won't take long. I bought a SxS with tracks specifically to get after wolves this year and I'm going to take my trapping certification this spring so I'm pretty excited about being able to get help with those expenses and decrease the population of wolves up here as much as I can.

 

[strattonje2020]

OH, I forgot about that! They also paved the way this year for exactly that and legalized private organizations reimbursing individuals for their expenses related to wolf hunting and trapping. So far no organization has materialized to my knowledge, but I'd be willing to bet it won't take long. I bought a SxS with tracks specifically to get after wolves this year and I'm going to take my trapping certification this spring so I'm pretty excited about being able to get help with those expenses and decrease the population of wolves up here as much as I can.

be a good winter hobby to break even on.

 

[BuzzH]

I was wrong when I said there are "virtually" no B-tags in region 1....there are LITERALLY zero. Absolutely no B tags of any kind in any unit in region 1. There are some LE permits that are for antlerless elk but that is entirely different...you can only take a maximum of one elk out of any unit in region 1, end of story. Go ahead and check the regs...it seems like you need a refresher on them regardless since you hunt up here so much!

My Dad lived here for 30 years of his life as well, he also doesn't know anything about hunting up here because he hasn't done it in 20. Living here for a long time at one point in your life doesn't make you an expert on what's going on now. You're lack of understanding of the regulations makes me doubt your knowledge personally, but that's just my opinion.

You can disagree with the primary causes for the lack of elk and have whatever opinions you want. I'll listen to the multiple biologists up here that I talk to every single year...they would strongly disagree with you. Wolves, bears, and cats are the primary driver.

I've hunted Montana for 41 straight years...never have missed a season.

Probably hunt Montana more than most Residents even though I don't live there anymore.

I'm well aware of the regulations, you didn't say anything about region 1, NW Montana contains more than one Region.

How many deer/elk are killed by lions in Region 1? What's the estimated lion population? How about the same for wolves? How many elk/deer do hunters kill in Region 1 each year?

You live there and talk to the biologists, are thoroughly convinced you "know" what is killing the most deer and elk in Region 1...yet post not a single fact, strange?

Facts matter, and you have none.

 

[BuzzH]

OH, I forgot about that! They also paved the way this year for exactly that and legalized private organizations reimbursing individuals for their expenses related to wolf hunting and trapping. So far no organization has materialized to my knowledge, but I'd be willing to bet it won't take long. I bought a SxS with tracks specifically to get after wolves this year and I'm going to take my trapping certification this spring so I'm pretty excited about being able to get help with those expenses and decrease the population of wolves up here as much as I can.

With wolves around every tree in the Flathead and NW Montana...you should have already killed a pile of them.

 

[Ross]

This organization is branching out into Montana and they have gatherings in Trout Creek likely the group that will assist with reimbursement….Justin Webb along with several others founded this due to the wolf issues….recommend following them on Facebook and Instagram it is nice to see dead wolves but the effort to do so in winter is crazy….he is out of Sandpoint becoming a member helps with the reimbursement plan funding