Elk Bullets - LRX vs HHT

[BAKPAKR]

I shoot Hammers and LRX in a couple of rifles and killed game with both this season. With respect to your comment above, the slight BC edge to the LRX is eliminated by the speed you can achieve. I can drive a 162 HHT to 3090 in my 7mm Rem Mag but have to drop to a 145 LRX to achieve that speed. A comp weight LRX will be slower than a HHT due to surface contact relief.

Had the same in my .300 Rem Mag: the 182 HHT is about 140 FPS faster than the 175 LRX. Drop and drift are more affected inside 600 by the higher speed than a couple of points on the BC label.

From my limited experience, I would agree with you. My speeds at pressure with Barnes bullets have been lower than the speed at pressure with cup and core bullets of the same weight. Hammer bullets seem to meet or beat cup and core speeds.

 

[glock233]

Dear internet: I’m trying to get good reliable transportation for my 10 mile morning commute. I’ve had trouble getting my Yugo to be reliable and get me to work fast enough.

I’ve ruled out a Toyota Camry and all other sedans, SUVs, and pickups.

I’m considering switching to a unicycle or skate board. Which would you recommend? I considered a bicycle but they’re hard to find right now.

Anyway the answer is ELDX or ELDM, or a Berger. And definitely not monometals.

 

[Unclecroc]

Dear internet: I’m trying to get good reliable transportation for my 10 mile morning commute. I’ve had trouble getting my Yugo to be reliable and get me to work fast enough.

I’ve ruled out a Toyota Camry and all other sedans, SUVs, and pickups.

I’m considering switching to a unicycle or skate board. Which would you recommend? I considered a bicycle but they’re hard to find right now.

Anyway the answer is ELDX or ELDM, or a Berger. And definitely not monometals.

You ever use a Hammer or a McGuire? Nothing wrong with cup and core bullets but newer style shed nose monos are not the mono bullets of yesteryear.
Stating going from a Berger or eld-m to a mono is like going from a car to bicycle is not quite fair.

 

[glock233]

You ever use a Hammer or a McGuire? Nothing wrong with cup and core bullets but newer style shed nose monos are not the mono bullets of yesteryear.
Stating going from a Berger or eld-m to a mono is like going from a car to bicycle is not quite fair.

It’s only overstated by degree. They mono bullets of yesteryear were dogshit and we’ve been promoted to just horseshit.

And yes, I’ve had hammers for close range meat hunts and one other use case. They’re terrible at mid-to-long range, in comparison to lead bullets.

Everything kills fine at close range and good velocity, including hammers and mono metals. It’s the edges of your range and intended use where you start to have problems. That area is when bullet choice matters.

And we’re got even getting into ease of establishing accuracy. Monos are finicky IME.

Here’s ELDx from my 7mm:



Here’s 177 Hammer from the same gun (real data):





This is out of a 24” barrel 7prc. LRXBT gives you an extra 50 yards. Best you can do with monos. The lighter hammers would obviously be worse.

The reality is, if I want my range capped at 650-700 yards, I can shoot a 16-18” Creed with a sensible bullet.

 

[Unclecroc]

It’s only overstated by degree. They mono bullets of yesteryear were dogshit and we’ve been promoted to just horseshit.

And yes, I’ve had hammers for close range meat hunts and one other use case. They’re terrible at mid-to-long range, in comparison to lead bullets.

Everything kills fine at close range and good velocity, including hammers and mono metals. It’s the edges of your range and intended use where you start to have problems. That area is when bullet choice matters.

And we’re got even getting into ease of establishing accuracy. Monos are finicky IME.

Here’s ELDx from my 7mm:

View attachment 1011979

Here’s 177 Hammer from the same gun (real data):

View attachment 1011980



This is out of a 24” barrel 7prc. LRXBT gives you an extra 50 yards. Best you can do with monos. The lighter hammers would obviously be worse.

The reality is, if I want my range capped at 650-700 yards, I can shoot a 16-18” Creed with a sensible bullet.

If long range is intended use then yes a cup and core is definitely the better option. I’ve shot game at 500 with both a hammer and a Berger in couldn’t tell you the difference in lethality. The hammer left a much more prominent blood trail.
But inside 500 the hammer doesn’t give up anything to a cup and core in the terminal end of things.
But I will agree after 500 the higher bc and lower expansion velocity of the eldm or Berger is the way to go.

 

[SDHNTR]

Dear internet: I’m trying to get good reliable transportation for my 10 mile morning commute. I’ve had trouble getting my Yugo to be reliable and get me to work fast enough.

I’ve ruled out a Toyota Camry and all other sedans, SUVs, and pickups.

I’m considering switching to a unicycle or skate board. Which would you recommend? I considered a bicycle but they’re hard to find right now.

Anyway the answer is ELDX or ELDM, or a Berger. And definitely not monometals.

Absurd statement.

 

[SDHNTR]

It’s only overstated by degree. They mono bullets of yesteryear were dogshit and we’ve been promoted to just horseshit.

And yes, I’ve had hammers for close range meat hunts and one other use case. They’re terrible at mid-to-long range, in comparison to lead bullets.

Everything kills fine at close range and good velocity, including hammers and mono metals. It’s the edges of your range and intended use where you start to have problems. That area is when bullet choice matters.

And we’re got even getting into ease of establishing accuracy. Monos are finicky IME.

Here’s ELDx from my 7mm:

View attachment 1011979

Here’s 177 Hammer from the same gun (real data):

View attachment 1011980



This is out of a 24” barrel 7prc. LRXBT gives you an extra 50 yards. Best you can do with monos. The lighter hammers would obviously be worse.

The reality is, if I want my range capped at 650-700 yards, I can shoot a 16-18” Creed with a sensible bullet.

Why make an argument on the fringes? With sensibility properly applied, Hammers kill just as well as anything else where 99% of hunting occurs. And they are incredibly easy to build accurate loads for. Yes, their BC’s might be inflated a bit in some cases, but that’s easy enough to work around.

 

[glock233]

Why make an argument on the fringes? With sensibility properly applied, Hammers kill just as well as anything else where 99% of hunting occurs. And they are incredibly easy to build accurate loads for. Yes, their BC’s might be inflated a bit in some cases, but that’s easy enough to work around.

Everything works at close ranges. The only meaningful difference shows up at mid to long ranges. And that difference is massive.

Running a 7PRC shooting confetti past 600 yards is nonsensical.

 

[SDHNTR]

Everything works at close ranges. The only meaningful difference shows up at mid to long ranges. And that difference is massive.

Running a 7PRC shooting confetti past 600 yards is nonsensical.

So is making an argument solely based on shooting 600+ yards

I could easily make a counter argument based on bullets coming apart, lack of penetration, meat loss, lead spray, etc., at short to normal ranges.

Let’s be sensible! Remove the margins and examine where 95% plus of hunting occurs, and normal hunting bullets, including hammers and LRX, work just fine.

 

[SDHNTR]

I shoot hammers and Barnes LRX or TTSX almost exclusively. It started that way because it’s required by law in my state, but even if it weren’t, I would not go back. They work fine and I am of the mindset that zero lead ingestion is better than any other amount. With my various rifles’ effective terminal velocity limitations will stop me at somewhere between 500 to 700 yards in most cartridges. Under absolutely no circumstances do I consider that to be any sort of limitation.

 

[glock233]

So is making an argument solely based on shooting 600+ yards

I could easily make a counter argument based on bullets coming apart, lack of penetration, meat loss, lead spray, etc., at short to normal ranges.

Let’s be sensible! Remove the margins and examine where 95% plus of hunting occurs, and normal hunting bullets, including hammers and LRX, work just fine.

The differences show up much earlier than 600 yards. That’s just when Hammers turn into confetti.

 

[180ls1]

The differences show up much earlier than 600 yards. That’s just when Hammers turn into confetti.

Interesting. How often are you seeing this?

Mine leave the barrel @ 3400 and I have yet to experience this. Shots from 100 (one closer but I didn't recover the bullet) out to 430.

 

[SDHNTR]

The differences show up much earlier than 600 yards. That’s just when Hammers turn into confetti.

You’re right. They do! That’s where animals die cleanly, and without lead in my kids’ food.

 

[AZ_Hunter]

When I first started using hammer bullets they had residual cutting oil on the hollow points. The additional fluid in the hole opened the bullet much quicker into the animal. I was getting 2”+ entry holes in the ribs and inside vital s were more souped with fluid in them vs 1.5” entry and a more narrow cavity in the onside vitals with the bullet reaching full expansion and shed petals usually 5” in without the oil.
Now I just take my bottle of hoppes oil and put a drop or two on the hollow point before season. I’ve not noticed it running everywhere in my rifle.
Please don’t think they don’t work well dry. They are very lethal bullets but the oil gives them a little more pop if you will.
Typical entry with oil.
View attachment 995471
Typical entry withoutView attachment 995472
Exits average about the same actually. About 1.5” with petal distribution more widespread with oil and more centric without.
This data is observed over roughly 15 deer with the same bullet. (90 absolute hammer).

I have read on the Hammer forums, that the Tipped bullets behave more similarly to
The HH bullets with oil; specifically with the cornered expansion (the ‘bubble’ being more shallow). Is that accurate based on your experience?

 

[SDHNTR]

I have read on the Hammer forums, that the Tipped bullets behave more similarly to
The HH bullets with oil; specifically with the cornered expansion (the ‘bubble’ being more shallow). Is that accurate based on your experience?

The oil theory is bunk. The tipped HHT’s work great. BC’s seem to be a bit more accurate too.

 

[Unclecroc]

I have read on the Hammer forums, that the Tipped bullets behave more similarly to
The HH bullets with oil; specifically with the cornered expansion (the ‘bubble’ being more shallow). Is that accurate based on your experience?

The tipped bullets expand quickly. Typically within the first 1” of penetration. Hh bullets from my experience (I know this is a debated and controversial thing) seemed to open almost instantly on impact with oil. Large entrance wounds and larger petal displacement. Without the oil they seem to expand about 1.5” in. I have photos of wounds that demonstrate what I mean.

 

[glock233]

Interesting. How often are you seeing this?

Mine leave the barrel @ 3400 and I have yet to experience this. Shots from 100 (one closer but I didn't recover the bullet) out to 430.

The wound profile of slower-to-open bullets gets smaller faster when you get close to minimum velocities. You'd see the effects on anything over 300-400 in my 7 PRC data. Not that it won't work, it's more a question of how it works in comparison to the alternative.