Elk Bullets - LRX vs HHT

[35WhelenAI]

Something doesn't compute, I can't imagine enough oil to make a vapor Trail for any length that would be visible far down range. The heat and pressure of going through the barrel will mitigate most everything on the surface if there is any on the surface and there's not enough in the tip to make any type of continuous trail.

If there is enough to make a continuous trail for hundreds and hundreds of yards, the discussion that oil in the tip changes expansion characteristic goes out the window because the oil is used up to make the vapor trail. Imo, can't have the cake and eat it too on this one, if it is even possible for one or the other to realistically exist.

 

[SDHNTR]

Something doesn't compute, I can't imagine enough oil to make a vapor Trail for any length that would be visible far down range. The heat and pressure of going through the barrel will mitigate most everything on the surface if there is any on the surface and there's not enough in the tip to make any type of continuous trail.

If there is enough to make a continuous trail for hundreds and hundreds of yards, the discussion that oil in the tip changes expansion characteristic goes out the window because the oil is used up to make the vapor trail. Imo, can't have the cake and eat it too on this one, if it is even possible for one or the other to realistically exist.

This, exactly. Zero chance of any oil in the tip being left upon impact.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Something doesn't compute, I can't imagine enough oil to make a vapor Trail for any length that would be visible far down range. The heat and pressure of going through the barrel will mitigate most everything on the surface if there is any on the surface and there's not enough in the tip to make any type of continuous trail.

All I know is they had a fairly visible trail and it was stated in the past it was due to the cutting oil.

Just brainstorming but makes me wonder if it’s burning off the oil? IE fired bullet is hot along with bullet friction in the air heating the bullet so what is actually seen is smoke?

 

[35WhelenAI]

The friction and pressure going through the barrel will eliminate oil on the surface. When the round is fired, powder gas escapes out in front of the bullet before the bullet engages the rifling and that is hot powder gas. Between the two there's really no possible way for a measurable amount of oil to be on the surface of the bullet as it leaves the barrel for any length of time that would leave a trail.

If it was on the surface of the bullet, one could run a damp oil patch through the bore, fire the bullet and expect the bullet to be coated with oil and leave a vapor trail. Doesn't happen.

The more this is pondered, a vapor trail from any amount of oil related to a specific bullet is not happening. And if said vapor is from the tip oil, there's no oil left to alter expansion characteristics upon impact. That goes down with the ship too.

Most of that is what I shared a few posts above, however it bears repeating. Logic doesn't seem to be in favor of vapor trails or enhanced expansion.

 

[fuzzymarindave]

Thanks for the feedback!
I have a 7prc

The sample 162 HHT shot amazing.

I ended up handloading the 160 lrx. They shot well, had higher (and more trusted) bc and I am getting about 3100fps in my 22 inch barrel.


I took the lrx it to Wyoming and shot a bull at about 120 yards. Bull went about 20 yards, tons of blood. Bullet had big entrance and small exit. Pedals all shed and looks like the bullet passed through. Destroyed heart, lungs and slightly peppered the back shoulder. Seems like due to high impact velocity the LRX performed like the HHT is designed.

I'm having a little sticky bolt I can't diagnose, so I think I'm going to try the HHT again. I was happy with the terminal performance.

Congrats on the elk. I’ve only shot pigs with LRX and they did fine. I’m using various HH and HHT successfully on big game and don’t plan to change. I would want to go with the bullet/load that gives me the most precise groups off the bench. This can be helpful for that 600 yard shot. Unless you’re going 800-1000 don’t worry about BC just make your own dope card.

 

[Leaf Litter]

141gr HHT punched my elk tag last year, no sweat. I shoot both HHT and TTSX in my elk and deer guns, no issues with either.

 

[wapitibob]

The friction and pressure going through the barrel will eliminate oil on the surface. When the round is fired, powder gas escapes out in front of the bullet before the bullet engages the rifling and that is hot powder gas. Between the two there's really no possible way for a measurable amount of oil to be on the surface of the bullet as it leaves the barrel for any length of time that would leave a trail.

If it was on the surface of the bullet, one could run a damp oil patch through the bore, fire the bullet and expect the bullet to be coated with oil and leave a vapor trail. Doesn't happen.

The more this is pondered, a vapor trail from any amount of oil related to a specific bullet is not happening. And if said vapor is from the tip oil, there's no oil left to alter expansion characteristics upon impact. That goes down with the ship too.

Most of that is what I shared a few posts above, however it bears repeating. Logic doesn't seem to be in favor of vapor trails or enhanced expansion.

Oil in the tip, hot bullet in high humidity, ?

 

[35WhelenAI]

Nice picture for the illustration.

Logically it does not fill the bill that there's enough oil to leave a trail, of the magnitude in your illustration for example. If it did, where is the oil to change expansion characteristics? The illustration is a live example of how oiling the tip can't leave that type of trail due to the amount needed and if it did, there's nothing left to affect expansion.

It's absolutely like a contrail from an airplane, bullet passing through the air at high speed, and high humidity with colder the air the more likelihood of it happening. The combination of the bullet, speed, humidity and air temperature create a condensation trail behind the bullet. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

To be clear I am not suggesting anything about expansion. I am saying the bullets left a vapor trail like the photo above all the time, including low humidity Colorado. I don’t think there is any meaningful oil in the surface, some in the hollow section that is burning off is what I was wondering.

Regardless of the mechanism there is a visible trail, atleast the older bullets I had.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

I have some random HH bullets lying around, maybe when I get time I’ll clean some in acetone and dribble cutting oil in some, load and shoot/film. Kinda curious now.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Copy on that. Apologies for continuing to include the expansion element. It's my opinion there's not enough oil in the tip, by a long shot, to cause a trail for the distance that it's visible behind a bullet.

I live in Colorado as well, very low humidity. It is interesting sources on Vapor Trails say humidity needs to be around 90% or higher.
With that said, there is no other explanation that makes sense to me other than the right conditions coming together to form one. I'm hoping someone will chime in that can add enlightenment to the discussion with respect to oil in the small tip of a bullet causing a multi hundred yard trail behind a bullet.

 

[35WhelenAI]

With respect to putting oil in the tips, any hollow point should be a suitable experimental vessel.

 

[SDHNTR]

Copy on that. Apologies for continuing to include the expansion element. It's my opinion there's not enough oil in the tip, by a long shot, to cause a trail for the distance that it's visible behind a bullet.

I live in Colorado as well, very low humidity. It is interesting sources on Vapor Trails say humidity needs to be around 90% or higher.
With that said, there is no other explanation that makes sense to me other than the right conditions coming together to form one. I'm hoping someone will chime in that can add enlightenment to the discussion with respect to oil in the small tip of a bullet causing a multi hundred yard trail behind a bullet.

My son shot an aoudad in S NM in Feb in the middle of the desert in country so dry the cactus was withering. He shot his ram on video and it left a wicked Vapor trail. With a tipped Hammer.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

My son shot an aoudad in S NM in Feb in the middle of the desert in country so dry the cactus was withering. He shot his ram on video and it left a wicked Vapor trail. With a tipped Hammer.

If that’s the case (tipped) probably nothing to due with oil on the tip vs just bullet shape.

Whatever the cause it’s pretty distinct if you’re in optics watching.

 

[TheWhitetailNut]

@35WhelenAI,
Those are great points. On paper, the 160 LRX are a bit better in BC than the 162 HHT. If the HHT I underperform estimates, that widens that gap. I know you need to true/confirm BC yourself, but there something to be said about a mfg providing actual, measured numbers.
I like high BC due to wind deflection (my biggest hunting enemy) and and retained velocity downrange (especially critical with Monos).
Thank you!

I shoot Hammers and LRX in a couple of rifles and killed game with both this season. With respect to your comment above, the slight BC edge to the LRX is eliminated by the speed you can achieve. I can drive a 162 HHT to 3090 in my 7mm Rem Mag but have to drop to a 145 LRX to achieve that speed. A comp weight LRX will be slower than a HHT due to surface contact relief.

Had the same in my .300 Rem Mag: the 182 HHT is about 140 FPS faster than the 175 LRX. Drop and drift are more affected inside 600 by the higher speed than a couple of points on the BC label.