Elk .243 or 25-06

[Indian Summer]

How much energy was needed?

More! The bullet performed as it was supposed to. Perfect mushroom. The back end was literally poking out of the skin a bit. I bet that hurt.

My niece shot a big cow out of a herd of around 40 with a .243. 100 yard shot give or take. I wasn’t focused on a particular animal when she shot but none of them flinched or fell. But 39 of them immediately hightailed it out of there and one just stood there. There was heavy fog blowing in and out giving us very short windows of opportunity to shoot or even see her. I saw her out her head down and eat a little bit. That really puzzled me. Then she walked away.

We waited for about 10 minutes then circled around to the left and when we got to the top of the rise used the fog to our advantage and got to within 75 yards of her. She was bedded chewing her cud head up like nothing had happened. A head shot put her down 25 minutes after the first shot. As it turns out the bullet had hit a bit forward and at the angle of the cow it only clipped one lung. Not enough damage. I lived for several hours myself once with one lung. It sucked but here I am. Lol We don’t use that gun for elk anymore. Remington Core Lokt by the way.

With respect to small bullets making big holes… Take 2 balls of clay. One about as big as a marble representing 70 grains and one 3 times bigger representing 210 grains. Now put a flat board on top and add weight and see which one expands to a wider mass. Now triple the weight on the board representing more energy and those balls of clay will expand more representing bigger holes and the fact that energy is a factor. No matter what you do the smaller ball will never cover as much area as the bigger one. There’s just less material there. I love my 7mm but looking at dead stuff it’s not a .300. I’m not saying a .300 is necessary I’m just saying that bigger bullets do bigger things upon arrival.

 

[yycyak]

Because I'm procrastinating intead of doing real work, I'll bite:

-- So a bad shot produced poor results? Weird.

-- Do you think your niece would have made a better shot using the 300 win mag instead of the 243?

-- If we follow your logic, why stop at 300win mag? If the intent is simply putting mass down range, why aren't you or your niece using a 460 Weatherby? 416 Barret? 50 BMG?

-- How big does a Big Hole need to be before it is "acceptable"? I would like to know this measurement for my own notes.

***

This thread is covering everything. I need more popcorn.

More! The bullet performed as it was supposed to. Perfect mushroom. The back end was literally poking out of the skin a bit. I bet that hurt.

My niece shot a big cow out of a herd of around 40 with a .243. 100 yard shot give or take. I wasn’t focused on a particular animal when she shot but none of them flinched or fell. But 39 of them immediately hightailed it out of there and one just stood there. There was heavy fog blowing in and out giving us very short windows of opportunity to shoot or even see her. I saw her out her head down and eat a little bit. That really puzzled me. Then she walked away.

We waited for about 10 minutes then circled around to the left and when we got to the top of the rise used the fog to our advantage and got to within 75 yards of her. She was bedded chewing her cud head up like nothing had happened. A head shot put her down 25 minutes after the first shot. As it turns out the bullet had hit a bit forward and at the angle of the cow it only clipped one lung. Not enough damage. I lived for several hours myself once with one lung. It sucked but here I am. Lol We don’t use that gun for elk anymore. Remington Core Lokt by the way.

With respect to small bullets making big holes… Take 2 balls of clay. One about as big as a marble representing 70 grains and one 3 times bigger representing 210 grains. Now put a flat board on top and add weight and see which one expands to a wider mass. Now triple the weight on the board representing more energy and those balls of clay will expand more representing bigger holes and the fact that energy is a factor. No matter what you do the smaller ball will never cover as much area as the bigger one. There’s just less material there. I love my 7mm but looking at dead stuff it’s not a .300. I’m not saying a .300 is necessary I’m just saying that bigger bullets do bigger things upon arrival.

 

[260madman]

Yes… any half decent bullet will work when it’s placed properly. Unfortunately that’s not always the case. Elk go unrecovered from improperly placed bullets that hit bones heavier than a rib, or hit no bone or vitals and just don’t do enough damage to incapacitate the animal quickly enough to recover or get a follow up shot. My .30-.30 barely kills deer but if I double lung an elk he’s going down. If I miss the mark he’s going down….. downhill fast and far.

My brother hit a deer dead center in the chest with a .32 one season. Deer did a summersault and my brother decided to eat his sandwich before getting dirty. When he was done he slowly walked up over a small fide to see the small buck eating! Hit the lungs and killed it. We found the first bullet just under the hide perfectly mushroomed up against the sternum. Not enough energy. Guys talk about the placement and incredible performance of modern bullets. But they don’t perform as designed or penetrate without sufficient energy.

I don’t take pics of dead elk after I peel the hide back but if you saw the damage from a 200 grainer doing 3600 fps your jaw would drop. Not on the offside either… right at the entry. From there it gets even more devastating. Not necessary on double lungers but on what is technically a miss it still does the job or at least gives me a second chance. Nothing walks away from that! Nothing.

 

[sndmn11]

More! The bullet performed as it was supposed to. Perfect mushroom. The back end was literally poking out of the skin a bit. I bet that hurt.

Would you believe in the likelihood of LESS velocity in that instance having a better result?

Why was that bullet chosen for that impact velocity?

 

[Indian Summer]

Because I'm procrastinating intead of doing real work, I'll bite:

-- So a bad shot produced poor results? Weird.

-- Do you think your niece would have made a better shot using the 300 win mag instead of the 243?

-- If we follow your logic, why stop at 300win mag? If the intent is simply putting mass down range, why aren't you or your niece using a 460 Weatherby? 416 Barret? 50 BMG?

-- How big does a Big Hole need to be before it is "acceptable"? I would like to know this measurement for my own notes.

***

This thread is covering everything. I need more popcorn.

You need to scroll up… way up. I think I said at least 5 times I’m not saying go big or go home. Let me know when you find that and you can edit. She can shoot with the best of them and she was 22 and she can easily shoot my 7mm. Most people can. With a brake anyone can. Don’t be scared give it a try. Next question….

 

[Indian Summer]

Would you believe in the likelihood of LESS velocity in that instance having a better result?

Why was that bullet chosen for that impact velocity?

Lol…. Hell no less velocity wouldn’t have helped. Hitting it in the lungs would have. Why was the bullet chosen? Are you serious Clark? Why do a million guys use Core Lokt? Because we grew up with them. Because they are readily available everywhere. Because the results for the most part all across deer and elk country are pretty good….. because the shot placement for the most part is pretty good. When you’re 13 you don’t sit around talking about ballistics and such. Next question….

 

[35WhelenAI]

I like the clay example for a visual however with bullets it's the expanded frontal diameter we should consider The shank shouldn't be included simply because it is the shank and contributes minimally to damage as the bullet travels. However the shank has a lot to do with maintaining momentum so the bullet can travel forward. More shank for any given bullet diameter and weight, i.e weight behind the expanded mushroom, better penetration.


If there's not enough bullet momentum to get the mushroom and shank into the animal, it's not an energy issue it's a momentum issue with respect to bullets in any caliber. Controlled expansion covers the nut and allows more momentum to be conserved because the weight of the bullet is conserved. Smaller calibers benefit greatly from controlled expansion to take advantage of their higher velocity to maintain forward momentum.

 

[yycyak]

You need to scroll up… way up. I think I said at least 5 times I’m not saying go big or go home. Let me know when you find that and you can edit. She can shoot with the best of them and she was 22 and she can easily shoot my 7mm. Most people can. With a brake anyone can. Don’t be scared give it a try. Next question….

 

[sndmn11]

Lol…. Hell no less velocity wouldn’t have helped. Hitting it in the lungs would have. Why was the bullet chosen? Are you serious Clark? Why do a million guys use Core Lokt? Because we grew up with them. Because they are readily available everywhere. Because the results for the most part all across deer and elk country are pretty good….. because the shot placement for the most part is pretty good. When you’re 13 you don’t sit around talking about ballistics and such. Next question….

A thirteen year old shot a .32cal corelokt at a facing deer?

Find some terminal ballistics test with the bullet as a constant and the velocity as a variable. I think a lot of this is going over your head.

 

[Zappaman]

I don’t think you're off. I like the bushnel products but not near as much as I like the performance of the Leopold products. And to be honest, I haven't actually picked, looked through or used a Bushnell product optics wise in.....ever?

Not true, my favorite little range finder for archery has been a Bushnell. Until I got my new little vortex and it works phenomenal.

I would entertain getting a bushnel,, but would be hesitant to know that it will actually perform in frozen, 0 degree snowy weather.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

Bushnell TOP line are 100% good to go... but bring your American Express card as they are all over the $1k budget. BUT lately... Bushnell (Vista) has NOTHING in the middle. Sad, as they bought Nikon and Weaver and basically shut the great $300 - $600 lines down. Better Pro-Staffs, all Monarchs, and (Japanese) Classics and Grand Slams were all superb glass-- ALL shut down (*and they didn't replace them with an equal Bushnell to this day).

Damn shame...

 

[Marble]

Bushnell TOP line are 100% good to go... but bring your American Express card as they are all over the $1k budget. BUT lately... Bushnell (Vista) has NOTHING in the middle. Sad, as they bought Nikon and Weaver and basically shut the great $300 - $600 lines. Better Pro-Staffs, all Monarchs, and (Japanese) Classics and Grand Slams were all superb glass-- ALL shut down (*and they didn't replace them with an equal Bushnell to this day).

Damn shame...

Good to hear that and thanks for sharing.

I'm in the consideration phase of replacing the scope on my elk rifle. It functions and tracks great, but is super stiff when it's really cold and at Max power, the quality of the image is horrible. Put side by side my wife's Leopold and they are worlds apart in clarity.

I dont mind spending 1k on a scope but won't if I don't have to.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

 

[BigNate]

Wow this is in the ditch!

 

[35WhelenAI]

Ok, bringing it back... A .243 or 25-06 with a bullet design that no one can agree on, topped with the ever elusive Vorte(k) scope oughta be the bee's knees for quarterside/broading shot presentation.

 

[BigNate]

It amazes me ho many have encountered bulletproof animals.

Truckloads of animals have fallen to anemic cartridges by today's standards and yet somehow today's choices don't work well enough.

I'm convinced some rare bullet failures occur, however if you test your chosen bullets out of your gun and have what you consider a failure, is it the fault of the equipment?

I have no issue shooting elk with a .25-06 stoked with ammo I understand. I have not used a .243W on elk.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Agree with you on your above post. The right bullet within capabilities a hunter understands, be it a .243, 25-06, the list goes on, sums things up real well.

The discussion is all well and good, I get wrapped up in it. Guilty as charged. Long before my 80 year old father was born, guys were shooting elk and put more thought into taking a piss in the woods than the bullet they used.

 

[Zappaman]

Yet, since hunting forums began, there are thousands of accounts of animals (hit even in the heart) that ran hard and far. I AGREE, it's a phenomenon... but I have to agree it happens (personally not to me- and I AM thankful in that respect).

 

[sndmn11]

It amazes me ho many have encountered bulletproof animals.

We are all descendants of vegetarians since killing energy was recently invented.

 

[35WhelenAI]

^^^That right there is funny^^^

 

[Zappaman]

We are all descendants of vegetarians since killing energy was recently invented.

Yep... never seen a baby born with canines (yet! but I'm sure a "reality TV" program will come along)

 

[kkp005]

@Formidilosus what 6mm bullet was used ? Some serious damage.. I’ve got a 6CM being built and haven’t made my mind up on what bullet to shoot