Elk .243 or 25-06

[MTWop]

Are you really saying that a mono out of a 243 or 6mm cm at 300 yards (2400-2500 fps) won't get through an elk shoulder??? because saying "more than what any 243 bullet packs at 300 yds" is asinine. Are we really talking about energy still regarding animals that gore each other to death whipping their heads around at each other? Are these the creatures that are too tough for metal at supersonic speed to

No. I am stating facts. There’s a picture in this thread of a “243” totally separating an elks shoulder at 708 ft-lbs of energy.

Please show me all the “shoulder shots from 6mm’s that didn’t make it through on those well over a hundred game animals. Please state what bullet each was used and the impact energy. I am legitimately curious about all the stated shoulders that stop bullets

Clearly you’re not going to change my mind and I’m not going to change yours. Right or wrong, we learn from our experiences. I’ve been on enough kills of my own and countless others to know that there are better options than a 243 for elk. Sure it’ll work for most scenarios, but I think we owe it to the animals to use the more effective tools IF we can shoot them well. If not, stick with the 243 and keep your distances reasonable. However, if you think that most shooters can only shoot a 243 accurately, you’re a fool. I’m a believer that placement > bullet > caliber, but don’t push it when dealing with elk

 

[Formidilosus]

Clearly you’re not going to change my mind and I’m not going to change yours. Right or wrong, we learn from our experiences. I’ve been on enough kills of my own and countless others to know that there are better options than a 243 for elk. Sure it’ll work for most scenarios, but I think we owe it to the animals to use the more effective tools IF we can shoot them well. If not, stick with the 243 and keep your distances reasonable. However, if you think that most shooters can only shoot a 243 accurately, you’re a fool. I’m a believer that placement > bullet > caliber, but don’t push it when dealing with elk

So you do, or do not have personal experience with 6mm’s failing to penetrate “shoulders”? I’m not trying to change your mind, I’m looking for data. You said that you had personal experiences, I'm asking for details.

 

[MTWop]

So you do, or do not have personal experience with 6mm’s failing to penetrate “shoulders”? I’m not trying to change your mind, I’m looking for data. You said that you had personal experiences, I'm asking for details.

I’ve witnessed a front shoulder shot from a 243 on a raghorn bull hit between the brisket and front shoulder not penetrate the brisket This was using hornady bullets, but I can’t recall if he was using ELDX, etc. The bull turned and ran UPHILL towards the next drainage of private. His father shooting a 270 shot the bull in the spine in the run from over 300 yards. Clearly it wouldn’t have mattered what he was shooting with the spine shot.I absolutely believe the bull otherwise would have been lost (the land owners tell you to pound sand if an elk ends up on their land) had he not been there to back his son up. Sure, the elk may have eventually died, but this is not the way I like to take my elk

 

[35WhelenAI]

Form, confirm it is correct that picture was the offside shoulder? And the bullet went in through a rib?

 

[Formidilosus]

Form, confirm it is correct that picture was the offside shoulder? And the bullet went in through a rib?

Correct.

Which is significantly harder than penetrating the onside shoulder.

 

[Formidilosus]

I’ve witnessed a front shoulder shot from a 243 on a raghorn bull hit between the brisket and front shoulder not penetrate the brisket This was using hornady bullets, but I can’t recall if he was using ELDX, etc. The bull turned and ran UPHILL towards the next drainage of private. His father shooting a 270 shot the bull in the spine in the run from over 300 yards. Clearly it wouldn’t have mattered what he was shooting with the spine shot.I absolutely believe the bull otherwise would have been lost (the land owners tell you to pound sand if an elk ends up on their land) had he not been there to back his son up. Sure, the elk may have eventually died, but this is not the way I like to take my elk

This was seen by you personally and not second hand? I just want to be clear- you’re saying that you’ve witness a big game bullet not penetrate a couple inches of tissue?

 

[35WhelenAI]

Except that the reality is in field shooting off of a pack (see equipment or skill thread), the hit rate on the two moa dot is low anyways, and the hit rates for magnums is abysmal. It isn’t the difference between between 1/3rd moa. It the difference between a 2 moa shooter and 4-5 moa shooter.


Will you please shoot this drill Hunting rifle drill with your 35 Whelen AI, cold no warm up exactly as it is laid out and post the target and results? No one on the board has shot it with the large of a rifle.

Here is a quote from that drill, folks can read the drill and this is the premise of that drill.

"It shows up constantly on both the range and during hunting- a custom magnum rifle, with sketchy scope, and low round count, leads to missing and wounding animals".

That has nothing to do with the type of equipment or preparation that I put in. I'm going to call BS on this one. Every shot I've taken off of shooting sticks, over a fanny pack out to 350 yards on elk have been MOE -minute of elk- and one and done. Many shots it closer range sometimes from sitting and a few offhand, bang flop. A few angles that I have posted recovered bullets on this forum in pics, a 6mm should probably not consider with frangible bullets and if they did it would be considered at the least marginally unethical.

And the drill itself, why the hell would someone start offhand then start to more and more supported positions? Tell me one time you've ever heard of that in the field. Absolute ridiculousness with respect to application in the field. You taught the effectiveness of smaller calibers and I believe in the effectiveness of larger calibers, so let's keep it real and talk about the field and not some contrived drill that has no bearing on the field. If a hunter can't shoot a gun one time in the field without soiling shorts, because they are so concerned of the recoil, don't know what to say.

 

[Indian Summer]

i want to know what chambering can fling a 200gr Accubond at 3600fps as was claimed 2 pages back. Nothing gets away from it, nothing.

.300 Remington Ultra Mag with 91.5 grains of Alliant RL25.

Everything in a 3.5 inch radius from the entry hole is bloodshot and the hole keeps getting bigger. I shoot a little far back to avoid destroying the front shoulder.

Death occurs when loss of blood starves the brain of oxygen. That takes a few seconds. But if you didn’t know better you’d think they were dead even before they hit the ground. No hesitation before falling. No breathing, no leg kicking, not a twitch. Like an army tank fell on top of them. I’ve had a few take a step or two. I haven’t lost sight of an elk much less had to track one.

It’s a 1000 yard rifle but I haven’t shot anything other than paper much past 400 yards so lots of ft lbs hitting home. I used to use Nosler partitions. They did great on bone and dropped elk quick but the damage wasn’t as severe. My 7mm Rem Mag doesn’t come close and it does a good job too. Do I need a gun like that? Maybe. And that’s good enough. I do every single thing I possibly can to inch my odds of punching my tag every year. I’m working my way up to killing elk to 8-900 yards. No hurry but the gun is ready. Well it will be if the scope ever comes off back order.

This gun isn’t even relevant to this thread. I never suggested anyone especially a beginner consider a big round like that. But it certainly shows the difference between big guns and smaller ones.

To me shooting the smallest round possible or anything lighter than you can handle is just potentially inching the odds in the wrong direction. Like I said awhile back… my suggestion is to do homework and find something in between that your comfortable with. The post above about the effectiveness of a brake is a good one. Why not if you are recoil shy? I’m pretty sure everyone can shoot something a little heavier than the .223 or 25-.06 without adding a brake. I think anyone could shoot a 7mm Rem Mag with a brake on it. Those things are the cat’s ass!

Everything has a downside. The only negatives I can think of with larger guns is the cost of ammo and losing meat especially if you hit bone and the hole gets even bigger.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Correct.

Which is significantly harder than penetrating the onside shoulder.

You are indicating that bullet, on-side shoulder, would penetrate the shoulder, destroy the vitals and it would be a no doubt kill?

 

[TxxAgg]

Why does everyone keep saying front shoulders. Elk only have two shoulders. And two hindquarters.

 

[Formidilosus]

And the drill itself, why the hell would someone start offhand then start to more and more supported positions? Tell me one time you've ever heard of that in the field. Absolute ridiculousness with respect to application in the field.

So you won’t shoot a whopping 20 rounds because you don’t like that it starts standing?

 

[Formidilosus]

You are indicating that bullet, on-side shoulder, would penetrate the shoulder, destroy the vitals and it would be a no doubt kill?

I’m not trying to be rude here- do you have any idea of actual terminal ballistics and what bullets do in tissue? I ask that genuinely as this is one of the most basic terminal facts. Yes, it is much easier for a bullet to penetrate a hard object when it has higher impact velocity and larger mass, I.E.- penetrating a shoulder first is much less of an issue, than penetrating one after going through ribs, lungs, and more ribs.

Here’s the back of the onside shoulder from the same projectile-



“Shoulder”, ribs, lungs, ribs, and exited just in front of the offside “shoulder”.

 

[35WhelenAI]

No, I'm saying the drill has no bearing on shooting in the field. I have described my results in the field with larger calibers, just as you describe your results with a smaller one. And I don't rely on arbitrary tests that must've been made up because somebody noticed people didn't practice which is the bottom line of that drill.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Sure blew up a lot of meat in the name of a 6mm projectile, lol!

 

[MTWop]

This was seen by you personally and not second hand? I just want to be clear- you’re saying that you’ve witness a big game bullet not penetrate a couple inches of tissue?

Yep, personally watched from 200 yards. I said brisket. That involves hide, skin, fat, muscle, a layer of thin cartilage, and bone. Definitely more than a couple inches of tissue. For sure it can penetrate, but you’re losing steam/energy as it moves through that tissue (or doesn’t). You’re stacking the odds against you if you insist on using a 243 for elk. Go out and shoot a lifetime of animals and get back to me. It would honestly require several hundreds of kills with each to realize the difference. Neither you nor I will ever get a sample size to adequately make a proper comparison

 

[Formidilosus]

No, I'm saying the drill has no bearing on shooting in the field.

So you don’t believe that hitting correctly sized targets away from a bench has any bearing on shooting in the field?

 

[jfs82]

I'm just saying that sounds like a bullet failure, not a caliber failure, no reason in my ind to expect a bigger caliber to have made a diff if the bullet did not to what it needs to.

 

[Indian Summer]

I had two hunters sitting together with identical rifles. Both .30-.06s shooting 185 grain bullets. 6 bulls stepped out of the timber. (why doesn’t stuff like that happen to me?) Both guys shot. All the elk blew back into the timber. They were only about 300 yards from camp so they came back and got me and the packer. We found one bull about 100 yards downhill from where he was hit. By the way both shots were frontal shots. That bull was hit in one lung.

The other bull kept going. He was bleeding pretty good and there was snow so tracking was easy. After about 600 yards he turned uphill. Shit. We found a spot where he bedded for a little and we may have jumped him. After about 2/3 of a mile we backed out until morning. We caught up to him around 9:00. He was bedded down and still alive. He was still able to get up and when he did the hunter finished him off.

The bullet, I can’t recall what make or type, had slipped inside the right shoulder but outside the rib cage. Never entered the lung cavity. I’m here to tell you that if that bull was hit with something bigger he would have died no further than the other bull. If I hit him with the .300 RUM he would have went down in his tracks. A .243 in the same spot and I don’t think we would have recovered him.

 

[35WhelenAI]

So you don’t believe that hitting correctly sized targets away from a bench has any bearing on shooting in the field?

What are you saying? What is a correctly sized target away from the field? All I've seen here is someone devised a drill to show something on a piece of paper to prove what we already know. Which is people who are afraid of their gun and don't practice tend to do worse no matter what caliber they're shooting. And again, with respect to hunting accuracy at the ranges I hunt, and the types of shots I take from whatever positions I take, I've done it and done it successfully. And I don't take out a whole shoulder to wax poetic on a small caliber.

 

[Formidilosus]

Yep, personally watched from 200 yards. I said brisket. That involves hide, skin, fat, muscle, a layer of thin cartilage, and bone. Definitely more than a couple inches of tissue. For sure it can penetrate, but you’re losing steam/energy as it moves through that tissue (or doesn’t). You’re stacking the odds against you if you insist on using a 243 for elk. Go out and shoot a lifetime of animals and get back to me. It would honestly require several hundreds of kills with each to realize the difference. Neither you nor I will ever get a sample size to adequately make a proper comparison

Thats ironic. I have several hundred kills with multiple calibers and bullets- including 30cals and 6mm’s. My personal single day max was around 70 on game during culling- though not with a 6mm. Fourteen elk this season, half of those were shot with the 6mm. There’s a thread with something close to 60 pictures of wound channels from animals I personally killed.