Efficacy of Head and Neck shots for LR Hunters

[JGood]

Not a troll. If i wanted to do that i would have referenced 77gr SMKs for sure.

The thought experiment started last week on a deer hunt when i went to take a shot. The animal was 589 yards away. at that range, the velocity on the ELDM's im shooting is around 1600fps. Kind of pushing the limits of reliable terminal expansion. I thought to myself, what if i took a shot behind the ear? dont have to worry about expansion anymore if i dome the buck. I ended up passing on the deer all together, but it peaked my curiosity.

I would suggest the efficacy of head shots at close range is not really an argument. Everyone knows they work well.

Perhaps a better thread title would be "At what range does head/cns become inefficient"

@hereinaz Looks like a great study. Very interesting that aiming at the head was named as a reason for missing, but NOT as a reason for wounding.

 

[t_carlson]

Wow. What an interesting perspective you have. You must have spent a lot of time in the industry and met a statistically significant amount of hunters from across the world to draw such a nuanced conclusion.

I'm glad you recognize the validity of my opinion.

 

[TradLife406]

A lot of times I've had to put animals down I've neck shot. I've only done two head shots. One on a WT does Saturday. I was prone off my tripod. 300 yards. I'd just shot my buck and still had a toe tag. The does were hanging around to I swung over and got steady on a big nag. Very light wind. Hit her in the eye with the 6.5 PRC.
Head shots are just so risky. But I knew I could make it. I'd rather go behind the shoulder.

 

[MattB]

Gutshot animals do not die of starvation, they die of bleeding out just much slower than if you hit the heart/lungs. I'm not sure if you're referring to a different kind of gutshot than I'm familiar with?

Gut shots generally die from infection from the bacteria in the digesta getting outside the stomach/intestines, not blood loss.

4. The kill box size - if someone could provide for measurments for the total square inches of vitals vs the total square inches of neck and brain on a deer that would be super helpful. I may be willing to concede this point. I do think the area of CNS in the neck is MUCH larger than people realize. impacts anywhere near the spine will cause a shut off, damage to any artery will cause the animal to bleed out in seconds.

Looking at the total square inches of the CNS misses the point because the CNS is long and narrow and missing the POI gives you less margin for error than the chest cavity. Missing the center of the chest cavity by 4” should still result in a clean kill. Missing the CNS by that same margin has a much higher percentage chance for a wound. IMO throwing in the notion that it has a higher % chance for a clean miss is just rationalization.

 

[doc holiday13]

In my area, a long shot is 100 yards. I generally go for the high neck shot. drops them fast

 

[MattB]

@hereinaz What if you had to anchor that animal in its tracks? Like a once in a life time Mountain goat on a cliff.

If the animal takes 3+ steps, you’re not recovering the animal. You still aiming for the lungs and heart?

A friend of mine who guides for goats sent me a picture of this (accidental) head shot. Thank goodness this regal once-in-a-lifetime trophy didn’t take a step after the shot.

 

[hereinaz]

In my area, a long shot is 100 yards. I generally go for the high neck shot. drops them fast

That is so foreign to me, 100 yards. Only animals I have shot that close were a reindeer and caribou out in the wide open when they didn't care how close I was. I still shot them double lung. Both times I saw chunks of lung and blood fly out and they walked maybe 5 to 10 yards. My choice of Berger hunting bullets at 3100 fps caused that. Not sure what other bullets would do. I could imagine them running some if it were a less explosive bullet.

I gotta get back East and hunt some deer.

 

[woods89]

A friend of mine who guides for goats sent me a picture of this (accidental) head shot. Thank goodness this regal once-in-a-lifetime trophy didn’t take a step after the shot.

Wouldn't you love to be his taxidermist?

 

[finner]

Not a troll. If i wanted to do that i would have referenced 77gr SMKs for sure.

The thought experiment started last week on a deer hunt when i went to take a shot. The animal was 589 yards away. at that range, the velocity on the ELDM's im shooting is around 1600fps. Kind of pushing the limits of reliable terminal expansion. I thought to myself, what if i took a shot behind the ear? dont have to worry about expansion anymore if i dome the buck. I ended up passing on the deer all together, but it peaked my curiosity.

I would suggest the efficacy of head shots at close range is not really an argument. Everyone knows they work well.

Perhaps a better thread title would be "At what range does head/cns become inefficient"

@hereinaz Looks like a great study. Very interesting that aiming at the head was named as a reason for missing, but NOT as a reason for wounding.

Thank god the Call of Duty generation is out here hitting the woods, big pat on the back to the R3 organizations. We needed more people in the woods taking riskier shots for the "peaked" curiosity factor.

 

[hereinaz]

Thank god the Call of Duty generation is out here hitting the woods, big pat on the back to the R3 organizations. We needed more people in the woods taking riskier shots for the "peaked" curiosity factor.

Its not good that anyone goes out unprepared. But, not sure they are better than the John Wayne generation they are replacing, lol. I listen to the stories of my generation hunting with their dads around the campfire.

 

[finner]

Its not good that anyone goes out unprepared. But, not sure they are better than the John Wayne generation they are replacing, lol. I listen to the stories of my generation hunting with their dads around the campfire.

I'm barely 30, but I know that if I tried to shoot a deer behind the ear at 589 yards for the neat factor, the old dudes at my campfire would beat me like a rented mule and never invite me back again.

 

[hereinaz]

I'm barely 30, but I know that if I tried to shoot a deer behind the ear at 589 yards for the neat factor, the old dudes at my campfire would beat me like a rented mule and never invite me back again.

Sounds like you have a good crew. It should happen to anyone trying to make that shot or anything else that is low confidence for point of aim/point of impact by a shooter. I agree neat factor shouldn't factor very high in the calculus!

Here is a thought experiment with a rhetorical question. No answer needed.

The conversation is definitely interesting, what behavior should get the rented mule treatment?
What if my odds for that shot are higher than odds for shots you all would take?
Does that change anything?

I'd put my odds on a cold bore shot on 6" at 600 yards at around 55-65%. Seems like there are shots with lower odds on things like running deer, kids shooting, really old timers shooting, etc. What is the difference between a wow factor for me and a wow factor for them?

 

[fisherman983]

The size of lung vs brain and lung vs neck is massive.

Look at it in real terms. The whole skull around the brain is maybe 6 inches on a deer. The neck is maybe 4 inches across to hit the spine/artery.

And, shooting the thin neck means the most explosive bullets can pass through without opening if velocity has dropped. If it doesn’t expand, only a direct hit to the spine will drop it.

Me and my gun are a 1 moa gun with 10 shots in field conditions at 100 if I can build out a solid position. At 400 yards that means my shot is going to land in a 4” circle.
At 400 yards the wind drift for 5 mph of wind is almost 3 inches for my 25 magnum.
I have to call wind within 2.5 mph to keep a bullet into the brain. And, that assumes any hit on the skull penetrates.
The margins for error are just too great. That same shot broadside in the lungs is massive from diaphragm to shoulders.

There is no way anyone is taking a head shot or neck shot for any practical reason at 400 yards unless they are doing it for fun and the challenge.

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jasontomeoutdoors.com

Just because you can't doesn't mean anything. I've taken them as far as 650. I have never not hit the neck when I've aimed for it.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

 

[NevadaMike]

I've taken a couple head shots on whitetails under 100yds with great success. I think people that oppose it are concerned with blowing off a bottom jaw and the animal suffering.

I had a buck with his jaw hanging by a thread wander through my yard a few months ago. My daughter was excited to see the buck coming until it got close.

 

[Felix40]

You’re talking about efficacy but your arguments don’t make any sense.

How is efficacy better when shooting at a 4” target that constantly moves, than shooting at a 10” target that’s relatively stationary? You keep bringing up gut shot animals but to gut shoot an animal you have to be like 8” off. To blow a deer’s jaw or nose off you only need to be like 3” off. There’s just as much non-brain tissue on the head as there is brain.

You considered taking a head shot at 600 yards because your bullet choice was getting into “questionable” velocity. The problem you are trying to solve is best solved by picking a caliber and bullet for the range you intend to shoot. There’s a bunch that don’t even recoil that much.

I shoot animals in the head all the time from close distance. It’s surprisingly easy to screw up a 20 yard shot and need a follow up. It takes a decent amount of concentration.

If this isn’t a troll thread then I am super confused how anyone could be so bad at reasoning. At any distance where you can reasonably expect to hit the brain, you are 2x more likely to hit the proper vitals. If your group size at that 600 yds is 6” then you have a 100% chance of making a kill shot in the vitals. Your chance of missing a head shot or hitting the jaw or nasal cavity are pretty high. I don’t see how this can even be a discussion.

 

[hereinaz]

Just because you can't doesn't mean anything. I've taken them as far as 650. I have never not hit the neck when I've aimed for it.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

Yeah, read the rest of the thread and my comments. I can do that and have done it. Doesn’t mean I would take the shot just cause I can. Vitals are much larger.

I am totally cool if you have the skill to do it. Its obviously in your wheelhouse.

 

[Caseknife]

I'm just a little confused how someone who has supposedly killed numerous animals has to ask how big the brain is on a deer in square inches side profile and how that compares to the thoracic cavity! WTH, drag the whole animal to the butcher and not even look at it or notice how the animal is put together?

Bet the horse that cut his esophagus and lived another 5 years had a vet call.

 

[Jbuck]

I'll admit the high neck shot is always my first choice, but always and often move to the vitals if range or rest dictates. I don't shoot long range at game, but usually practice at 510yds. My 6yo can make a first round impact on our 10" plate most of the time when I dial for him.

This is the shot my wife was stuck with this year deer hunting. The doe had already moved and he was getting ready to go.



And her bullet placement. Rock solid rest: prone with a bipod and rear bag.

 

[Shortschaf]

I think they're dumb even at short range.

The one deliberate headshot I ever took was inside 200 yards from the prone. I watched it hit her head, explosion of hair, and her head was pushed instantly to the dirt. Watched her a few minutes and when she didnt move, we pronounced her dead, and then we got up to approach and tag her.

When we got about 30 yards from where she laid (it was a brush patch, we couldnt see her while approacing), a doe gets up in front of us and runs away. We think nothing of it, there were lots of deer around. After searching for the one I shot for 20 minutes we learn that it was the same doe that ran away. I only knocked her out.

hitting the skull enough to stun, but not enough to kill, is a difference of a couple inches. I will never do that again without at minimum putting follow-up shots into the animal--at which point it defeats the purpose.

 

[ddowning]

When I was young and dumb I saw some people kill many deer with head shots. 22lr to 22/250 to 12 gauge slug. I only saw the jaw shot off one time, and it was with a scattering shooting slugs with no sights, no scope, except the front bead.

I will also say this. Every man likes to think they are great at shooting, driving, and screwing. I don't want to come off as arrogant, so I will make an example out of my hunting buddy. He made many shots when we were young that most typical Fudd hunters considered impossible. He did it consistently. Then we started shooting PRS. We learned to shoot at a level that even we had previously thought was impossible. We also learned what we were capable of and when we were pushing limits.

Most people are rather poor shooters. I have met some extraordinary shooters shooting matches. I'm sure there are more out there that don't shoot matches. It has been proven to me that no matter how good you think you are, someone is better. You should not judge their capabilities based on yours.

The responsible thing to do is to shoot a lot. Practice in field scenarios and challenge yourself. Push limits until you know what they are, then hunt. We can all still screw up and make a bad shot, but the likelihood is low when we stay within our limits. Also, it is important to remember that my limits and your limits will not be the same, and that could go in either direction.