Efficacy of Head and Neck shots for LR Hunters

[hereinaz]

I found a dead buck that had its lower jaw blown off. In my opinion most people don’t have any business shooting at long range period, let alone the head.

Agreed.

I try to help people understand what goes into a shot so they can prepare and make informed decisions.

 

[Macintosh]

Square inches comparison is not an appropriate comparison, because hitting a very long thin target is not the same as hitting a more-or-less circular target. The head/neck is effectively a much smaller target regardless of what the square inches say. If the “right” situation came along, sure, but 1) that wiuld be the exception and not the first choice, and 2) it would necessitate high odds of success. To me, hitting a 3-4” target at long range (realistically that means more than 350-400 yards to me) is not realistic for me given any wind and any wobble, so regardless of oial or not, I’m not taking that shot at “long range”. I would much rather remember a oial animal disappearing over the ridge never to be seen again knowing that it’s intact, than see it disappear over the next ridge never to be seen again knowing that I caused it a long, slow painful death out of my selfishness…which to me isnt unlikely in the situation. To me neck/head shots are second choice and only at close range when I have a good position. I like neck roasts, makes great barbacoa.

 

[Rich M]

I have nothing against head/neck shots but only do so at short ranges. They move around a lot and the head is usually the first thing to move.

 

[JohnJohnson]

Very good point. Why you gotta make it so hard, lol.

Yeah, Mr. Hunting Ethics? Well what if the goat was holding your wife hostage and only showing its head as it made its demands while using her to shield its body and you only had 5 seconds to shoot it or she dies because the police aren't willing to give the goat a helicopter?

 

[Marshfly]

As an ethical hunter your first responsibility is a clean, efficient, humane kill. Meat loss and other factors is far below that IMHO.

You're not recovering anything if you hit the trachea or jaw instead of the brain or spine. All you did was feed the coyotes.

 

[JGood]

Efficacy vs ethics? "Suffering is not part of the criteria". WTH?

Correct. You cant measure suffering. I have no idea if its worse to get your lower jaw shot off or get shot in the stomach or get a leg blown off. It's too much of a side car discussion to put it into the discussion. Additionally, everyone has their own definition of "ethical" hunting...especially in a LRH forum so I dont think it adds to the discussion.

Please, share experience with tracheas impacted from an expanding bullet impact healing eventually.

We had a horse cut its trachea on a wire fence. Hole about the size of a quarter. Went on to live another 5+ years. Additionally, people live all the time with perminant tracheotomies. Regardless, my point is that 9/10 animals shot in the trachea will die right where they stand. But maybe there are a few that dont and i bet most of those animals heal up.

I found a dead buck that had its lower jaw blown off. In my opinion most people don’t have any business shooting at long range period, let alone the head.

Unfortunately we have no idea if the buck's lost jaw was a result of someone missing a head shot or if they were aiming somewhere else.

@hereinaz that is an awesome video. great shot and a perfect example of the efficacy of CNS shots.
@JohnJohnson this is clearly wife dependent....and as the man said...hes willing to thread the needle!


Best reasons against so far are clearly:
1. Group size at range (circle target vs long target)
2. Wind effect
3. More movement in the target (head bobing)

 

[S.Clancy]

I wonder if these guys head shooting "for meat" are taking all the rib, flank, neck, every edible organ etc from every animal.....

IMO, head/neck shots are a last resort. There is no reason to take them in almost any circumstance. I've seen a number of them go bad.

 

[JGood]

Doesn't that scenario play out pretty frequently on those hunts? And yes, I'm shooting high lungs. A head shot destroys the mount.

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Yeah it does! and dudes lose their Goats off the tops of mountains all the time. If that high lung shot doesnt hit the brachial plexus right on the money. Your goat is going for a hike and so are you.

 

[hereinaz]

Yeah, Mr. Hunting Ethics? Well what if the goat was holding your wife hostage and only showing its head as it made its demands while using her to shield its body and you only had 5 seconds to shoot it or she dies because the police aren't willing to give the goat a helicopter?

Can I phone a friend?

Reminds me of my favorite Christmas movie, Die Hard.

 

[JGood]

I wonder if these guys head shooting "for meat" are taking all the rib, flank, neck, every edible organ etc from every animal.....

IMO, head/neck shots are a last resort. There is no reason to take them in almost any circumstance. I've seen a number of them go bad.

Probably not. I have too many friends that wont take high shoulder shots because it "damages too much meat" or worse wont shoot an animal a second time on its feet that they "know is going to die" but they leave heart, liver and neck meat. Thankfully this country has salvage laws.

 

[hereinaz]

The "Goat Hostage" situation got me thinking, lol. I'd like to test my skill. I spent a summer testing myself in the field, hiking then picking a rock for "double lung shot" and building a position with my tripod. I got 100% confident inside 600 yards.

A man's got to know his limitations, lol...

All ya'll who say it can't be done, tell me how I need to run a fair test to calculate my efficiency at CNS shots at long range. I will video tape it. I won't sandbag cause I am all about long range. Maybe I'll be convinced to add CNS shots to my bag of tricks.

Many in the thread say that no one has any business shooting beyond some arbitrary range. I get it, and there's room for the opinion. But, is there anything I could do to change your mind.

I sure don't feel like I am blowing smoke up anyone's skirt. Here is one video I took the summer I proved out my system. On the video, for my cold bore shot I generally held center mass on the rock, and then the additional shots I used the first impact as my point of aim. You can see things drifting in the wind, so you know conditions were perfect.

I'll try to make it as cold bore/hunting/field conditions as I can. I have a place in the desert I can set up multiple targets at multiple distances. I can paint a line on steel, draw a deer outline on paper and shoot based on anatomy, draw the actual "kill zone" for the CNS as aiming point, etc.

To make it as "cold bore" as possible, I will shoot once per position. I will start every shot with everything on my pack. I won't shoot any shots in prone, unless ya'll want it, cause I rarely get a prone shot in the wild I just don't practice it much.

For reality check on my skill, here is the CNS and other major nerve systems of a deer.



The CNS for deer is a pretty slim target, head, neck or Brachial Plexus (BP). When it comes to long range, there are so many variables that come into play to make a shot that flips the off switch. I'll try them all though. You can tell me how many times I flip the off switch.

You can run the numbers for yourself from the couch, too. Pull the ballistics for whatever rifle you want to consider, whatever weight or construction, and run the numbers. Put it in Applied Ballistics WEZ (Weapon Employment Zone) for a reality check on the probability of a strike.

Some days, I could feel confident to make a cold bore shot on CNS, and do. Others, I am humbled by some factor I didn't even know existed.

Its easy to get off in the weeds, but I like to get to the details and proof. If someone shows me the rifle system and skill to pull off the shot with sufficient probability, you'll get no objection from me. If I can prove it for myself, well, I'm not bothered if you disagree for any reason.

 

[JGood]

@hereinaz im not a veternarian, but i think you need to add trachea to your area of death. You also need to add any major arteries (remembering that you just have to lightly scratch those with a small peice of jacket). I think there is more in the neck than most people realize and its a pretty fradgile ecosystem in there. Ive seen quite a few successfull neck shots where ive wondered to myself "how the hell did that thing die?" but there it is on the hill side. Doornail dead.

 

[hereinaz]

@hereinaz im not a veternarian, but i think you need to add trachea to your area of death. You also need to add any major arteries (remembering that you just have to lightly scratch those with a small peice of jacket). I think there is more in the neck than most people realize and its a pretty fradgile ecosystem in there. Ive seen quite a few successfull neck shots where ive wondered to myself "how the hell did that thing die?" but there it is on the hill side. Doornail dead.

I was focusing on the pure CNS shot that causes bang/flop to get the 100% goat drop and no roll.

I agree that there is a lot more that can kill if you don't get the CNS. I was thinking the Rokhive could evaluate and argue over the lethality of CNS misses. That will certainly give me a lot of valuable feedback and experience I don't have.

It would be fun to make this a challenge. I'd be curious to see what other's could do. If enough people wanted to get in on it like the cold bore challenge, LS Wild will offer up some prizes to the winners and heavy discounts for anyone who plays the game with us.

 

[JGood]

People can claim whatever they want, but I think if $1M was on the wager line for folks to drop an animal in its tracks, we'd see a lot more head shots.

I think this is best proven by european hunters and animal control specialists who need to do it by contract. Wounded animals and blood trails are not an option for a lot of those guys. The question only becomes relvent when we ask, at what range does it become no longer a viable option?

Id love to see this tested.

 

[t_carlson]

What is wild is the fact that is even a question. A unique combination of naivety and hubris, IMO.

The same people who advocate for head and neck shots are the same people who believe the following:

1) You have to cut a dead animal's throat so it will "bleed out"
2) Bullets "rise" above the LOS when you shoot downhill
3) Magnums "shoot through" animals because the bullet doesn't have time to open up

YMMV, but I've never meet a hunter with a modicum of ethics and real-world experience who advocates for head or neck shots beyond 200 yards with a good rest.

 

[rclouse79]

Correct. You cant measure suffering. I have no idea if its worse to get your lower jaw shot off or get shot in the stomach or get a leg blown off. It's too much of a side car discussion to put it into the discussion. Additionally, everyone has their own definition of "ethical" hunting...especially in a LRH forum so I dont think it adds to the discussion.


We had a horse cut its trachea on a wire fence. Hole about the size of a quarter. Went on to live another 5+ years. Additionally, people live all the time with perminant tracheotomies. Regardless, my point is that 9/10 animals shot in the trachea will die right where they stand. But maybe there are a few that dont and i bet most of those animals heal up.


Unfortunately we have no idea if the buck's lost jaw was a result of someone missing a head shot or if they were aiming somewhere else.

@hereinaz that is an awesome video. great shot and a perfect example of the efficacy of CNS shots.
@JohnJohnson this is clearly wife dependent....and as the man said...hes willing to thread the needle!


Best reasons against so far are clearly:
1. Group size at range (circle target vs long target)
2. Wind effect
3. More movement in the target (head bobing)

I am not sure how someone blowing a jaw off when they were not aiming at the head helps you case, but ok.

 

[JGood]

I am not sure how someone blowing a jaw off when they were not aiming at the head helps you case, but ok.

Im saying a blown off jaw is not itself evidence against headshots if the intended target is not known.

i.e. If the person was aiming at the heart, but missed and hit the jaw, that wouldnt be evidence that shooting at the head would have produced the same result.

 

[JGood]

What is wild is the fact that is even a question. A unique combination of naivety and hubris, IMO.

The same people who advocate for head and neck shots are the same people who believe the following:

1) You have to cut a dead animal's throat so it will "bleed out"
2) Bullets "rise" above the LOS when you shoot downhill
3) Magnums "shoot through" animals because the bullet doesn't have time to open up

YMMV, but I've never meet a hunter with a modicum of ethics and real-world experience who advocates for head or neck shots beyond 200 yards with a good rest.

Wow. What an interesting perspective you have. You must have spent a lot of time in the industry and met a statistically significant amount of hunters from across the world to draw such a nuanced conclusion.

 

[hereinaz]

This is good stuff, IMO. I try to keep an open mind, and if someone does enough convincing, or peaks my curiosity, I'll test it. I like to see something to back up an opinion. I go by what can be tested and verified.

Hunting and shooting opinions are dominated by personal experiences, biases and whatever the country version of "urban legends" are called. I hear and read a lot of BS and stuff that is repeated so often it is accepted as truth.

I am generally against CNS head and neck shots at long range. Just too many factors. But, I am truly curious.

Dig a little on lunch break, and it is amazing what one can find with a little Google-fu. This is an analysis from UK "stalkers" self reporting deer kills. It is not long range, but it is useful information of some sort. Not proof of anything and it's not really gonna win the argument either way in my opinion.

At best it just confirms my position that a competent hunter will take the shot that is available and that the hunter is confident taking. No shot is perfect, but you can get high enough odds. Adding a CNS shot with high probability to my bag of short range tricks is probably a good thing. Maybe it can be stretched to intermediate and long range.

Factors Associated with Shooting Accuracy and Wounding Rate of Four Managed Wild Deer Species in the UK, Based on Anonymous Field Records from Deer Stalkers

The amount of wounding during routine culling is an important factor in the welfare of wild deer. Little information exists on factors determining shooting accuracy and wounding rates under field conditions in the UK. In this study, 102 anonymous stalkers ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Point of aim (Figure 1B). This was also highly associated with the probability of a shot hitting its target. Shots at the chest were most likely to hit (97% success), followed by shots to the lower neck (89%). Shots to the high neck were least likely to hit (81%) and ones to the head were intermediate (85%).

This is interesting breakdown of percentage of kill shots by direction deer was facing and point of aim. The number of each shot is recorded in the parentheses. The percentage is in the column.

The VAST majority of "stalker" shots were to the chest, not a head/neck shot..

 

[jimh406]

This has got to be a troll thread if for no other reason than the reference for long range hunting. However, it might have caught a few more had he mentioned using a 223 with match bullets with iron sights in a AR pistol.