Efficacy of Handguns for Bear Defense

[Roughwater]

It doesn’t look like he was trying to stop an attack, just taking advantage of a lucky opportunity while hunting for bears. Making the grunt and having the bear turn broadside within bow range seems like the ideal thing to do in that instance.

Got ya. You are right, I didn't realize you were hunting bear at the time, I thought you were Elk hunting and trying to avoid the bear. My bad.

 

[Beendare]

That article has been posted many times...its good info.

No doubt the hard cast ammo is a game changer for the lesser calibers...large calibers too.

Once you've seen one of these solids or hard cast bullets do its thing- its pretty amazing.

_______

 

[Roughwater]

Wiscgunner said:
"I have been researching the same setup. You might want to reconsider the “extreme” penetrators. The Underwood Hardcast flat nose penetrate far better. The extreme penetrators don’t penetrate much more than other standard ammo and ball ammo can penetrate further. There are several videos on YouTube coving this exact comparison"

Appreciate you sharing the videos. I had wondered how the two (Penetrator vs hardcast) would compare. I had seen some other videos comparing ball and hollow points and the Penetrator out penetrated the HP by a lot and the ball by a little but the permanent wound cavity was much larger with the penetrator than with ball and very comparable to HP ammo but a much longer wound cavity. Now with this test (Penetrator vs hard cast) the tester used a metal pan. I've noticed in some tests and with my own shooting that copper doesn't respond favorably to hard metal. It does well on flesh and bone. If you looked at the penetrator bullet you saw the damage to it. I think that happened with the contact with the pan so the bullet nose was compromised before entering the foam causing it to be unable to perform as designed. I'm not saying hard cast won't penetrate deeper, but in gelatin tests it's over all performance would be much better than ball or even the best HP ammo so I still think would would be very effective against a bear.

 

[FLAK]

Glock 30SF , KKM Precision Barrel, 23lb recoil spring, and .45 SUPER 255gr. Buffalo Bore Hardcast Outdoorsman ammo.

 

[Beendare]

Wisc gunner posted some good vids. Both are good bullet choices- IMO.

The only advantage to the extreme penetrators is feeding. The shape is conducive to perfect function in a semi auto pistol. I know buddies that had failures with some hardcast bullets with the wide meplat. The penetrators shouldn't have those problems.

Penetrators are a much lighter bullet...a big negative, IMO. They are supposed to make up for that by the design creating a concussive wave force...that goes beyond my pay grade.

The other fine point in the vid is bullet tumbling. It appears the penetrator bullet tumbled in one of the vids- not good. I've had buddies tell me the 220 gr underwood tumbled on them too...plus there is that Hickcock 45 vid where he experienced the same. Tumbling kills penetration.


My personal testing; Stock G20 with Underwood 200gr is good to go!

All I know is I ran a shitload of 200 gr underwood hardcast in my stock G20 and it functioned 100% [even trying to limp wrist a few] and there was no lead buildup to speak of after 300 consecutive rounds [about 700 total so far]

The rear of the barrel was discolored a little...But I clean the barrel and would never go that many rounds of hardcast at a time ever again...its too damn expensive. [Ammo cost me more than the pistol....but I wanted to make sure it functioned] Clean the stock barrel regularly and its no problem.

_______

 

[commandoNate]

Am I the only one that thinks that making a deer grunt as the bear walked away may not have been the smartest thing to do? It just didn't seem like the ideal time to draw attention to one's self.

To clarify, this was not an aggressive bear encounter. I would never do that if I felt threatened. He had no idea we were there until he got to about 8 yards, then he saw us standing there perfectly still and wasn't really sure about us so he started to walk away. The grunt was to stop the bear for a shot at +/-16 yards and it worked perfectly.

 

[Wmmichael20]

To clarify, this was not an aggressive bear encounter. I would never do that if I felt threatened. He had no idea we were there until he got to about 8 yards, then he saw us standing there perfectly still and wasn't really sure about us so he started to walk away. The grunt was to stop the bear for a shot at +/-16 yards and it worked perfectly.

I'm thinking there needs to be a picture of said bear posted

 

[commandoNate]

I'm thinking there needs to be a picture of said bear posted

Ask and ye shall receive. Not the biggest bear I’ve ever seen but he was the one that came strolling in when I had a tag in my pocket. It’s my first and still only critter taken with a bow. Unless you count a handful of grouse.

m

 

[commandoNate]

Got ya. You are right, I didn't realize you were hunting bear at the time, I thought you were Elk hunting and trying to avoid the bear. My bad.

I was elk hunting, but with a bear tag in my pocket too. I have had several close encounters with bears over the past couple archery seasons in Colorado but none where I felt threatened. I decided to get a bear tag just in case an opportunity presented itself. Glad I did!

Sorry, I'll stop with the tread hijack here. Good info on bear defense weaponry posted above and thank you to those who have contributed. I didn't mean to turn this into show and tell.

 

[Roughwater]

I like this thread and appreciate Jeremy for starting it. I had previously read that the article he pointed out as I'm going to Montana this year (I hope) as I put in for the general tag. Everything I have read about hunting in Montana has at least one bear warning statement. So like some of you I'm fishing a bit for protection options. I don't particularly want to carry a big hand cannon on a archery hunt if possible. But I want to protect myself at the same time. Many seem to be going to the 10mm auto for that purpose and I plan to as well. Through this post in part has convinced me maybe I should try some of the hard cast bullet too. So now my plan is to use both hardcast and penetrator in my 10 mm by alternating a penetrator and a hard cast in the magazine. Of course I'll also be carrying bear spray as well. I'm planning on using the glock 20 and add a 6" barrel compatible with hardcast. The 6" barrel should give me some added velocity too for a few extra ft lbs of energy.

 

[Wiscgunner]

Wiscgunner said:
"I have been researching the same setup. You might want to reconsider the “extreme” penetrators. The Underwood Hardcast flat nose penetrate far better. The extreme penetrators don’t penetrate much more than other standard ammo and ball ammo can penetrate further. There are several videos on YouTube coving this exact comparison"

Appreciate you sharing the videos. I had wondered how the two (Penetrator vs hardcast) would compare. I had seen some other videos comparing ball and hollow points and the Penetrator out penetrated the HP by a lot and the ball by a little but the permanent wound cavity was much larger with the penetrator than with ball and very comparable to HP ammo but a much longer wound cavity. Now with this test (Penetrator vs hard cast) the tester used a metal pan. I've noticed in some tests and with my own shooting that copper doesn't respond favorably to hard metal. It does well on flesh and bone. If you looked at the penetrator bullet you saw the damage to it. I think that happened with the contact with the pan so the bullet nose was compromised before entering the foam causing it to be unable to perform as designed. I'm not saying hard cast won't penetrate deeper, but in gelatin tests it's over all performance would be much better than ball or even the best HP ammo so I still think would would be very effective against a bear.

In the TFB video I posted the shoot the Extreme Penetrator and the Underwood Hardcast though ballistic gel only so penetration is easily compared without obstruction. I found it helpful. In the Paul Harrel video I like his use of "meat targets" where he attempts to simulate a body cavity without outside leather, rack of ribs (beef or pork ) internal organ (watermelon or grapefruit) and unlike most others he also includes the back side of the body cavity with same layers.

After much research, I plan to use a Glock10mm with the hardcastbullets but will certianly test for reliability. I jsut can't decide between the G20 (1911 grip angle available) or G29 (weight savings). Fortunately not much of a velocity difference between the too. I have large hand so if I go with the G29 I will need mag extentions.

 

[MAVinWA]

love my G20, using Double Tap 200 gr hard cast. But not for practice, just use 185gr regular ammo for range and plinking.
never a problem using original Glock barrel. But Buff Bore and Underwood 220gr & 230gr jam the pistol, not good.
considering a KKM barrel change out for this reason of jamming using the heavier cast bullet rounds.

 

[Mmomn]

love my G20, using Double Tap 200 gr hard cast. But not for practice, just use 185gr regular ammo for range and plinking.
never a problem using original Glock barrel. But Buff Bore and Underwood 220gr & 230gr jam the pistol, not good.
considering a KKM barrel change out for this reason of jamming using the heavier cast bullet rounds.

A KKM has a much tighter chamber than a Glock OEM barrel. If you are having jamming issues with the OEM barrel I would think the KKM would be much worse. I practice and hunt with my KKM but put the OEM in if using it for defense

 

[ncavi8tor]

I have been running my G29 with a 4.5" KKM barrel and 21 lb. spring with Underwood 220 grain hardcast at the range. It has been flawless through 200 rounds. I will consider it 100% reliable and ready for bear country after 1000 rounds.

Running G20 magazines with XGrip mag adaptors and Wolff extra power mag springs.

It also runs Underwood 200 grain HC, 180 grain XTP, and Sig Sauer 180 grain FMJ perfectly.

NC

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk