Easton Axis 4mm, grouping issues?

[Pekan]

Howdy, I'm getting back into archery/bowhunting in a big way after a couple of years less into it. I'm a Western bowhunter, elk, muley, whitetails.
My goal for target shooting is to reach out to the 100 yard range, just as a goal and something to practice. Plus TAC has become a thing and might want to give it a try one day...

After a youtube deep dive I decided to pick up some Easton Axis Long Range 4mm arrows. Couldn't wait to start lobbing bombs! Well I took them to the local indoor range and at 20 yards they couldn't group at all. After 3 groups of 3 arrows down range I decided to put them away and go back to my Carbon Express D-Stroyers, which group tight, able to pop balloons at 70 yards. Figured I'd wait until I'm outdoors and able to tinker a bit with them.

My questions to the the bow gods:
Are these 4mm arrows known for being more sensitive to tuning issues, either bow or nock tuning?
Could the smaller diameter of the arrow make enough of a difference to arrow squareness to the string? ( i haven't tried paper tuning these yet)
All my other arrow setups, never have I added weight up front for foc, I believe the Axis arrows are more of a foc focused arrow. Could this effect tuning to the point where I'd see a difference in accuracy?

I want to believe the hype about 4mm arrows, and heck they say Long Range right on them! Wondering if I'm not doing my part?
Thanks.

 

[Bump79]

What is your draw length, bow speed and draw weight? Spine could be an issue. Carbon express runs different on spine that every other manufacturer out there.

 

[Pekan]

What is your draw length, bow speed and draw weight? Spine could be an issue. Carbon express runs different on spine that every other manufacturer out there.

draw weight is currently 66 lbs, length 27", haven't chrono'd in a while but I believe it should be around 280-285 fps. Based on previous chono.
The arrow store said I was on the line between 300 and 340 spine. I went with 340.
Carbon Express D-stroyers are 350

 

[ScreamingPotato]

I'm not shooting 70 yards, but mine group fine at 40 and I haven't tuned the bow for them yet so should tighten up a bit more when I finally get off my duff.

edit: ^on the line I always go with the stiffer spine, though it's probably not your issue.

 

[Bump79]

draw weight is currently 66 lbs, length 27", haven't chrono'd in a while but I believe it should be around 280-285 fps. Based on previous chono.
The arrow store said I was on the line between 300 and 340 spine. I went with 340.
Carbon Express D-stroyers are 350

That's odd. I'd look at nock fit and pinch. Also, could be they did a junk job squaring your arrows when they cut them.

Outside of that I'd just make sure they're tuned out of your bow.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

OP you mentioned going back to regular diameter arrows and shooting well. I wonder if the smaller diameter is causing the rest to be low enough that the tail is kicking up when you shoot and causing fletching contact. Is that a thing? Arrow will definitely sit angled down on the rest due to the smaller diameter.

 

[Pekan]

That's odd. I'd look at nock fit and pinch. Also, could be they did a junk job squaring your arrows when they cut them.

Outside of that I'd just make sure they're tuned out of your bow.

Nock pinch did cross my mind. I spun the arrows when I got home from buying them, seem straight enough.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

I'm not a fan of 4mm arrows in general (unnecessary expense and component headaches for marginal benefit IMO), but there's no reason you shouldn't be able to get those 4mm Axis arrows to group well. Things I would try (in no particular order):

• Check for vane contact — if the 4mm Axis have taller vanes, they could be hitting your rest or cables
• Check nock fit — too tight on the string or too tight inside your d-loop could cause grouping issues
• Square the nock end of the shaft
• Rotate the nock to various positions and see if grouping improves

The "Long Range" in the 4mm Axis name is mostly marketing fluff. Any arrow can be shot to any distance you want. The only conceivable long range benefit of a 4mm arrow is less wind drift. How much less wind drift can actually be achieved compared to a 5mm or 6.5mm arrow is debatable. I tend to think the effect of shaft diameter on accuracy when shooting in the wind is negligible compared to the effect of the wind on the shooter's ability to aim.

 

[Pekan]

OP you mentioned going back to regular diameter arrows and shooting well. I wonder if the smaller diameter is causing the rest to be low enough that the tail is kicking up when you shoot and causing fletching contact. Is that a thing? Arrow will definitely sit angled down on the rest due to the smaller diameter.

I'm using a fall away QAD, don't think the fletches would make contact. The grouping was bad but on target.

 

[Zac]

So your shop sold you these shafts and didn’t square your rest, or put one through paper?

 

[nphunter]

Lot's of stuff could be causing your issues. your center shot will be slightly off shooting a 4mm. Your going from a 7+mm arrow with the CE350's down to a 4mm. You're going to be nock high for sure, typically nock high won't cause erratic flight, contact of some sort is typically the culprit of poor grouping at close distance. Even poor nock fit or unsquare shafts will group decent at that range. You more than likely have too much room in your d-loop going from the large CE nock down to the D6 nock in the axis, if you knock high in the loop for one shot and low in the loop for the next it could cause high low misses. Any variant in side-to-side misses is most likely some kind of contact issue.

The quickest way to rule out fletching contact is to shoot a couple of bare shafts, if they hit consistently each time then you have fletching contact causing your poor groups. If you do shoot a bare shaft it will most likely hit low and tail high if you haven't adjusted your center shot so start out closer than 20 yards so you don't miss the whole target.

 

[Pekan]

I'm not a fan of 4mm arrows in general (unnecessary expense and component headaches for marginal benefit IMO), but there's no reason you shouldn't be able to get those 4mm Axis arrows to group well. Things I would try (in no particular order):

• Check for vane contact — if the 4mm Axis have taller vanes, they could be hitting your rest or cables
• Check nock fit — too tight on the string or too tight inside your d-loop could cause grouping issues
• Square the nock end of the shaft
• Rotate the nock to various positions and see if grouping improves

The "Long Range" in the 4mm Axis name is mostly marketing fluff. Any arrow can be shot to any distance you want. The only conceivable long range benefit of a 4mm arrow is less wind drift. How much less wind drift can actually be achieved compared to a 5mm or 6.5mm arrow is debatable. I tend to think the effect of shaft diameter on accuracy when shooting in the wind is negligible compared to the effect of the wind on the shooter's ability to aim.

Yeah I assume that "Long Range " is probably an area of growth in the archery industry, so the Easton marketing department had that label put on the arrows. It worked on me....

Rotating the nock is definetly something that I'll be trying. I've had great success with tightening up groups with broadheads doing this.

Once I get out shooting and have the time to tinker more, I'll post an update.....

 

[Pekan]

So your shop sold you these shafts and didn’t square your rest, or put one through paper?

No. Didn't have my bow with me anyway. This has never been offered to me from any shop.

 

[Pekan]

Lot's of stuff could be causing your issues. your center shot will be slightly off shooting a 4mm. Your going from a 7+mm arrow with the CE350's down to a 4mm. You're going to be nock high for sure, typically nock high won't cause erratic flight, contact of some sort is typically the culprit of poor grouping at close distance. Even poor nock fit or unsquare shafts will group decent at that range. You more than likely have too much room in your d-loop going from the large CE nock down to the D6 nock in the axis, if you knock high in the loop for one shot and low in the loop for the next it could cause high low misses. Any variant in side-to-side misses is most likely some kind of contact issue.

The quickest way to rule out fletching contact is to shoot a couple of bare shafts, if they hit consistently each time then you have fletching contact causing your poor groups. If you do shoot a bare shaft it will most likely hit low and tail high if you haven't adjusted your center shot so start out closer than 20 yards so you don't miss the whole target.

I've got some experimenting to do.... Thanks for your input.

 

[Zac]

No. Didn't have my bow with me anyway. This has never been offered to me from any shop.

Well tune your bow then see how it does.

 

[Billy Goat]

Even an out of tune bow should still group with field points.


Label the arrows, see if it's one that is causing an issue in the group.

Check nock fit, contact, anything that's different with how these shafts interact with your bow than the CX shafts.

 

[fatlander]

If they’re older Carbon express arrows, 350 doesn’t mean .350 deflection like every other arrow manufacturer. Carbon express used to do some weird stuff with their numbers relative to actually deflection.

As others have mentioned you’ve also got to consider overall shaft diameter, nock size, and nock fit.


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[Billy Goat]

A 350 CX should be a 340 or a 350 spine.

450's are actually 300 spine and 250's are 400 spine.

 

[fatlander]

A 350 CX should be a 340 or a 350 spine.

450's are actually 300 spine and 250's are 400 spine.

I thought some of the 350 cx were as far as .320-something and as you noted everything else is bassackwards


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[Billy Goat]

I thought some of the 350 cx were as far as .320-something and as you noted everything else is bassackwards


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It could be, because I'm pulling from memory. But I thought they were all either .340 or .350 spine depending on which shaft it was.