Does the 223/6mm for everything change when hunt cost $$$

[Shō[t]gun]

24:45-25:55 reminded me of this discussion

I don't know what video he's talking about but the one I saw from AB the barrel moved about 1/4 matchstick width, not 1/4-1/2 inch. A barrel muzzle would have to be moving ~15mph in order for it to travel 1/3" offline during a 1.3millisecond lock time (Tikka t3, lock time referenced from another thread in this forum). I agree that it moves some, and we can all agree that any movement is negative to accuracy, but 1/4"+ means the barrel was already in movement when the trigger was pulled from the info I've gathered.

 

[Marbles]

Coastal brown at cooper landing?

Given a lack of clear definition, the point could be debated. Bears in Cooper Landing have access to marine food sources in the form of salmon and being within 30 miles of salt.

Boon and Crockett would define as a brown, not a grizzly.

Category Boundaries for Big Game Records

Big-game records keeping for both Boone and Crockett and the Pope and Young Club deals only with certain native North American big game animals. For such purposes, the southern boundary is defined as the south boundary of Mexico. Only cougar, jaguar, and whitetail deer of the recognized trophy...

www.boone-crockett.org

Bear Identification (U.S. National Park Service)

bear, American black bear, brown bear, grizzly bear, bears, bear aware

www.nps.gov

Call it whatever you want, big grizzly works if it makes you happy as there is no difference in species, only size due to food sources.

 

[JackButler]

Agree 100%. Talk on the internet is cheap. Real world dudes that make an average salary and take 10+ years to save up for the hunt of a lifetime, and then actually take a .223 on said hunt are extremely rare. And yes I’ve read the whole other thread. And I'm a fan of the 223, I’ve killed over 150 deer on depredation tags with one using mostly 69gr sierra matchkings. But when I finally fork over the cash for my dream Mexico 200” Muley hunt where I might well be shooting 400+ yards at the buck of a lifetime, the 223 will be snug at home in its case.

I'd be willing to bet that if someone was traveling halfway around the world with $40k on the hook, regardless of what they say, they are not taking a 223 and I am including everyone

 

[JackButler]

You said it right in your post, range. Inside its range it is perfectly fine. But it’s range is significantly less than many other rounds, so why limit yourself if there’s $40k on the line.

Why’s that? Will line out in logical, objective points- what a 223/77gr TMK is lacking inside its terminal range?

 

[Marbles]

Funny, the title specifically says "223/6mm" and people selectively can only read the 223 part.

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

Given a lack of clear definition, the point could be debated. Bears in Cooper Landing have access to marine food sources in the form of salmon and being within 30 miles of salt.

Boon and Crockett would define as a brown, not a grizzly.

Category Boundaries for Big Game Records

Big-game records keeping for both Boone and Crockett and the Pope and Young Club deals only with certain native North American big game animals. For such purposes, the southern boundary is defined as the south boundary of Mexico. Only cougar, jaguar, and whitetail deer of the recognized trophy...

www.boone-crockett.org

Bear Identification (U.S. National Park Service)

bear, American black bear, brown bear, grizzly bear, bears, bear aware

www.nps.gov

Call it whatever you want, big grizzly works if it makes you happy as there is no difference in species, only size due to food sources.

Just curious if costal brownies made it that far. Or even that common there. Don’t hear of them often. Coastal brownies are more popular in other areas than cooper’s landing.

 

[Marbles]

Just curious if costal brownies made it that far. Or even that common there. Don’t hear of them often.

Odd, the NPS recommends taking a trail out of Cooper Landing to the Russian River as one of the best spots to view brown bears on the Kenai.

Coastal brownies are more popular in other areas than cooper’s landing.

And? Katmai and Kodiak are both more famous for bears, but to argue that bears are not found in other areas is rather urban.

Can you define coastal? Is that below tide line, within the area frequently covered in a marine layer, within an area where any given bear could have stepped in salt water, or the definition used by Boon and Crockett as well as NPS based on food source and size?

Ever wonder why Boon and Crockett draws the line halfway to Fairbanks to separate "Alaska brown bears" from grizzlies?

 

[Mountainrancher]

You said it right in your post, range. Inside its range it is perfectly fine. But it’s range is significantly less than many other rounds, so why limit yourself if there’s $40k on the line.

The biggest point that people miss is that 99 percent of hunters shouldn’t be shooting past the terminal range of the 223/tmk anyways.

 

[Marbles]

The biggest point that people miss is that 99 percent of hunters shouldn’t be shooting past the terminal range of the 223/tmk anyways.

Sadly, this is very true of me. A detailed breakdown is in the thread below. The short of it is skill calling wind at present limits my 77 TMK engagement range to 300 yards. A 243 can extend that to 380 yards, but my current recoil management puts my 243 max range at only 350 yards. This is still within the terminal effective range of the 223/TMK combination of 470 yards. Practice and skill, not a new cartridge, is needed to extend my effective range.

Determine max effective engagement range

This thread is an extension of the thought process that trigger the wind number thread. https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/wind-number-and-caliber-cartridge.362572/ Basically, the realization that wind can matter inside 400 yards and the frequently repeated idea that wind doesn't mattering out...

rokslide.com

 

[plebe]

The biggest point that people miss is that 99 percent of hunters shouldn’t be shooting past the terminal range of the 223/tmk anyways.

Do other cartridges have advantages within the terminal range of the 223/tmk?

 

[plebe]

I don't know what video he's talking about but the one I saw from AB the barrel moved about 1/4 matchstick width, not 1/4-1/2 inch. A barrel muzzle would have to be moving ~15mph in order for it to travel 1/3" offline during a 1.3millisecond lock time (Tikka t3, lock time referenced from another thread in this forum). I agree that it moves some, and we can all agree that any movement is negative to accuracy, but 1/4"+ means the barrel was already in movement when the trigger was pulled from the info I've gathered.
View attachment 728169
View attachment 728170

Kind of where I thought the discussion landed.

What’s the bottom line then? Gun moves, or shooter moves?

 

[Formidilosus]

during a 1.3millisecond lock time (Tikka t3, lock time referenced from another thread in this forum).

Lock time isn’t the bullets time in the barrel.

Kind of where I thought the discussion landed.

What’s the bottom line then? Gun moves, or shooter moves?

It was a misspeak. It should have been up to 1/4” on some combos, and 1/16” is normal.

 

[JackButler]

Do other cartridges have advantages within the terminal range of the 223/tmk?

Yes

 

[omicron1792]

Yes

Ha

 

[Ozarkansas]

Do other cartridges have advantages within the terminal range of the 223/tmk?

Hotter .22 centerfires like 22 ARC and 22 creedmoor, as well as the 6mms, certainly have options for significantly less drop and wind drift than the .223/TMK with little recoil penalty. Above that you have a ton of options with much less drop and drift, but (in my opinion) significantly more recoil.

Where the .223 is unbeatable though is ammo cost. I couldn’t buy or reload ammo for my 6.5x55 or .243 at remotely the cost of a .223, so it gets shot way less

 

[HandgunHTR]

Yes

Do tell.

 

[Grundy53]

Hotter .22 centerfires like 22 ARC and 22 creedmoor, as well as the 6mms, certainly have options for significantly less drop and wind drift than the .223/TMK with little recoil penalty. Above that you have a ton of options with much less drop and drift, but (in my opinion) significantly more recoil.

Where the .223 is unbeatable though is ammo cost. I couldn’t buy or reload ammo for my 6.5x55 or .243 at remotely the cost of a .223, so it gets shot way less

Does the drop really matter if you're dialing either way?

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

 

[Ozarkansas]

Does the drop really matter if you're dialing either way?

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

I honestly don’t know, I don’t shoot far often enough to have an opinion on that. But for me, less drop from 0-300 helps make hits in on an unknown distance range when I’m not dialing

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

Odd, the NPS recommends taking a trail out of Cooper Landing to the Russian River as one of the best spots to view brown bears on the Kenai.

And? Katmai and Kodiak are both more famous for bears, but to argue that bears are not found in other areas is rather urban.

Can you define coastal? Is that below tide line, within the area frequently covered in a marine layer, within an area where any given bear could have stepped in salt water, or the definition used by Boon and Crockett as well as NPS based on food source and size?

Ever wonder why Boon and Crockett draws the line halfway to Fairbanks to separate "Alaska brown bears" from grizzlies?

Common and occasionally are two different things.
If I’m targeting a coastal brownie, I’m not doing it on the Kenai P.

Odd, the NPS recommends taking a trail out of Cooper Landing to the Russian River as one of the best spots to view brown bears on the Kenai.

And? Katmai and Kodiak are both more famous for bears, but to argue that bears are not found in other areas is rather urban.

Can you define coastal? Is that below tide line, within the area frequently covered in a marine layer, within an area where any given bear could have stepped in salt water, or the definition used by Boon and Crockett as well as NPS based on food source and size?

Ever wonder why Boon and Crockett draws the line halfway to Fairbanks to separate "Alaska brown bears" from grizzlies?

I’m not arguing. Simply asked coastals in Cooper’s landing. Just not something I’ve seen or heard of.

I know guys that see brownies on cameras occasionally baiting.

 

[Marbles]

Common and occasionally are two different things.
If I’m targeting a coastal brownie, I’m not doing it on the Kenai P.

Go back and read my post you first quoted, I was targeting black bear and that is clearly stated.

It is officially a intermediate density population. However, that is beside the point as I never used the word common.

I’m not arguing. Simply asked coastals in Cooper’s landing. Just not something I’ve seen or heard of.

Sorry, I did not think anyone who hunts in Alaska could be uninformed of the difference between coastal and interior brown bears and their distribution; which lead me to interpret the question as being passive aggressive. Even so, I tried to avoid bickering of terminology in my first reply, so it really does come across as you are arguing; especially when combined with the two straw man arguments of targeting and common made above.